Daniel 12

So your response is... if I may boil it down, Christianity is a replacement theology...
I don't think so. Marcion thought that way, and we have been guilty of supersessionism in history, but the point I'm trying to make is Christ illuminates the theology of the Covenant in a way that transcends the 'tribal customs' that surrounds it.

I'm with Paul: "I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid." (Romans 11:1). God does not go back on His word, the Covenant with Israel stands eternal.

... or an improvement upon Judaism ...
Again, I don't see it that way. An 'improved' understanding of Judaism, but not an improvement upon Judaism.

If the Jews had accepted Christ as the Messiah, for example, then there would be a seamless continuity between the traditions.

Personally I think we lost a lot when the schism developed between Jews and Christians.
 
How about Muslims the replacement theology for Christianity ...
But they got Christian theology wrong.

Mohammed (PBUH) understood Christianity from the Nestorians, who's theology – which the 'orthodox' world had refuted – rather implies Jesus is a prophet, a human person 'inhabited' or 'possessed' by the divine nature, so Islam always got a 'wrong' Christology from their neighbours, and a wrong idea of the Trinity, hence their accusation of tritheism.

Or Bahai, the next prophets followers?
I don't see anything 'new' or 'revealed' in Bahai. To me its like Theosophy, someone trying to set up a meta-religion ... a chimeric enterprise that signals a radical failure to discern between the universal and the particular, by trying to render a universal as a particular, to formalise the formless.

That's why I'm more inclined towards the Sophia Perennis, which speaks of the religions without having to reinvent them, or inventing similitudes between fish and bicycles, and most significantly because it doesn't try to set itself up as something it's not.

While we are in this conjecture on an interfaith site....who goes to hell and who goes to this heaven?
Whoever chooses to put the self before the Real, howsoever the Real is spoken of.

It might be worth mentioning that Daniel falls into two parts. The first part falls in line with a common Hebrew literary form as Haggadic genre. Sometimes a commentary on an historical event, haggadic midrash, sometimes a pure story with no historical foundation at all, but as a means of pedagogy, haggada. The scholarly tendency is to view Daniel as the latter, something akin to a historical novel where a character is created and set in a certain past ... there is a close equivalent story in a pagan text that suggests Daniel is a figure from folklore, and there's more writings about Daniel in the but there's more to Daniel than an entertainment.

The second part is not prophetic – it's not placed among the prophets in the Hebrew canon but separate, among the writings – but apocalyptic.

Daniel is written in part Hebrew, part Aramaic and part Greek, probably the work of more than one hand, but all belonging to one 'school' as far as the over-arching vision of the book is concerned.
 
But they got Christian theology wrong.

Mohammed (PBUH) understood Christianity from the Nestorians, who's theology – which the 'orthodox' world had refuted – rather implies Jesus is a prophet, a human person 'inhabited' or 'possessed' by the divine nature, so Islam always got a 'wrong' Christology from their neighbours, and a wrong idea of the Trinity, hence their accusation of tritheism.
QUOTE]
OK you are just tempting me into the topic. :D

Is the Noble Quran wrong regarding Mary?
This article covers some of the topics. Your argument seems akin to a David Wood argument that "That's not what trinity means"(He means to him)"so it must be wrong"
I'm not a big fan of the answering-(insert religion) sites, but they do cover most common arguments quite extensively. Just stay away from where they accuse others for modern events.
 
OK you are just tempting me into the topic. :D
Yes ... sorry about that ...

Is the Noble Quran wrong regarding Mary?
This article covers some of the topics.
But, as ever, it's all about what it assumes we believe, rather than what we believe ... and relying on a disgruntled voice is always going to lead to a distortion of the truth.

But really:
"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]
Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, not in the Fathers, nor the Councils, nor the Catechism, nor anywhere else, does Christian doctrine ever present the Theotokos as God, but the 'bearer' (the etymological meaning of the term Theotokos) of God as man, as the Prophets are the bearers of the Word of God as messages from God ... so I can only wonder where that notion came from ...

Likewise nowhere do we ever speak of 'two gods besides God'. There is only God, God is One, revealed in Three.

Not to get into a long critique, but there are a number of statements that are patently false. In the link to more rebuttals it states:

3- Did you know that the Lord Jesus Christ never died on the cross, according to Islam and also according to the Bible?
Maybe according to Islam, but not the Bible. The Bible is explicit: He died on the Cross.

4- Did you know that according to the Bible, Christ rested in the cave (tomb) on the floor for 3 days receiving medical care from Mary Magdalene and others? And that he rose and left after he healed?
Where in the Bible? I can't find it.

These myths were promulgated by the gnostics in the 2nd century, but never by orthodoxy.

Where its wrong, it's flat wrong. Where it misinterprets doctrine, it's eisegis, reading an interpretation onto a text that's not implicit, let alone explicit, in the text, and a reading that was never endorsed by any Father, Council or dogma. This is just over-zealousness on the part of Moslem believers.

In many places the argument is illogical:
just because this is not the trinity everyone is familiar with does not mean the Quran cannot condemn it.
Well the Quran can condemn what it likes, but it's pointless condemning something that no-one 'is familiar with', that is, no-one says in the first place ...

There's a famous saying of St Maximus the Confessor. During the Christological disputes of the 4th century, a devious schemer tried to tell St Maximus that the Pope held, as a dogma, a 'fact' about The nature of Jesus which St Maximus knew was not the case. He declared, "Then the Church is wrong, and I am the Church!" A very clever rebuttal of a falsehood.

I echo that sentiment.

+++

I am ready to acknowledge that a Marian devotion can seem like the deification of the Theotokos, but it isn't, and I have never heard of any Christian, anywhere in the Tradition, that presents Mary as God.

The Rosary, a classic example, accords Mary the Biblically-founded status as 'full of grace' and 'the Lord is with thee'. It goes on to say 'blessed art thou among women' meaning she is a woman, just that, a woman chosen to be the bearer of the Incarnate Word. It goes on to ask her intercession in her prayers – to God – on our behalf.

But the Mysteries of the Rosary, which we are to contemplate between the prayers, are the Mysteries of God, not the mysteries of Mary, and the Rosary is a contemplate cycle through those Divine Mysteries ... that has always been the source of its efficacious value.

On devotions:
The Christian Church believes itself to be a communion that transcends time, space, and the world. A communion that transcends life and death, in that the dead live on in God. So in the Liturgy we pray to God as God, and we pray to the living and the dead, the angels and saints, 'and to you, my brothers and sisters' to pray for me, to Almighty God', that is, to remember me kindly in their prayers to God.

Mary is absolutely human. Our Lord took His humanity from her, not His divinity, that came, and can only come, from God, and can only be God. We reverence her because of her absolute faith in God: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word" (Luke 1:38). In that, she was the 'first Christian' and 'the Mother of the Church' because she is the mother of Christ who founded the Church. But her words refute any notion of her being God.

We revere her because she could have said 'no' – in the same way that the Prophet (PBUH) could have told the angel to 'go away'.

In short:
No Creed, Council, Church Father, Pope, Patriarch or Christian ever declared that Mary is God, and ...
No Creed, Council, Church Father, Pope or Patriarch ever refuted the idea that Mary is God, because no-one ever declared she was ...
 
the NT is written for those who the Torah is not enough....the Quran is written for those who the Torah and NT is not enough...

they disagree on purpose....to separate the believers... my book is right, your book not so much...

nothing new here.
 
Yes ... sorry about that ...


But, as ever, it's all about what it assumes we believe, rather than what we believe ... and relying on a disgruntled voice is always going to lead to a distortion of the truth.

But really:

Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, not in the Fathers, nor the Councils, nor the Catechism, nor anywhere else, does Christian doctrine ever present the Theotokos as God, but the 'bearer' (the etymological meaning of the term Theotokos) of God as man, as the Prophets are the bearers of the Word of God as messages from God ... so I can only wonder where that notion came from ...

Likewise nowhere do we ever speak of 'two gods besides God'. There is only God, God is One, revealed in Three.

Not to get into a long critique, but there are a number of statements that are patently false. In the link to more rebuttals it states:


Maybe according to Islam, but not the Bible. The Bible is explicit: He died on the Cross.


Where in the Bible? I can't find it.

These myths were promulgated by the gnostics in the 2nd century, but never by orthodoxy.

Where its wrong, it's flat wrong. Where it misinterprets doctrine, it's eisegis, reading an interpretation onto a text that's not implicit, let alone explicit, in the text, and a reading that was never endorsed by any Father, Council or dogma. This is just over-zealousness on the part of Moslem believers.

In many places the argument is illogical:

Well the Quran can condemn what it likes, but it's pointless condemning something that no-one 'is familiar with', that is, no-one says in the first place ...

There's a famous saying of St Maximus the Confessor. During the Christological disputes of the 4th century, a devious schemer tried to tell St Maximus that the Pope held, as a dogma, a 'fact' about The nature of Jesus which St Maximus knew was not the case. He declared, "Then the Church is wrong, and I am the Church!" A very clever rebuttal of a falsehood.

I echo that sentiment.

+++

I am ready to acknowledge that a Marian devotion can seem like the deification of the Theotokos, but it isn't, and I have never heard of any Christian, anywhere in the Tradition, that presents Mary as God.

The Rosary, a classic example, accords Mary the Biblically-founded status as 'full of grace' and 'the Lord is with thee'. It goes on to say 'blessed art thou among women' meaning she is a woman, just that, a woman chosen to be the bearer of the Incarnate Word. It goes on to ask her intercession in her prayers – to God – on our behalf.

But the Mysteries of the Rosary, which we are to contemplate between the prayers, are the Mysteries of God, not the mysteries of Mary, and the Rosary is a contemplate cycle through those Divine Mysteries ... that has always been the source of its efficacious value.

On devotions:
The Christian Church believes itself to be a communion that transcends time, space, and the world. A communion that transcends life and death, in that the dead live on in God. So in the Liturgy we pray to God as God, and we pray to the living and the dead, the angels and saints, 'and to you, my brothers and sisters' to pray for me, to Almighty God', that is, to remember me kindly in their prayers to God.

Mary is absolutely human. Our Lord took His humanity from her, not His divinity, that came, and can only come, from God, and can only be God. We reverence her because of her absolute faith in God: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word" (Luke 1:38). In that, she was the 'first Christian' and 'the Mother of the Church' because she is the mother of Christ who founded the Church. But her words refute any notion of her being God.

We revere her because she could have said 'no' – in the same way that the Prophet (PBUH) could have told the angel to 'go away'.

In short:
No Creed, Council, Church Father, Pope, Patriarch or Christian ever declared that Mary is God, and ...
No Creed, Council, Church Father, Pope or Patriarch ever refuted the idea that Mary is God, because no-one ever declared she was ...
As I, and if I remember the argument stated by the article correctly, stated, It is not an argument against all trinity.

As you stated, nobody now would think she is God (at least in the mainstream). But many Catholics will ask Mary (PBUHer) for help rather than God. And Praise her when they recieve blessings.

What it seems you want to miss is it calls for a stop to anything other than God to be praised. Some of the arguments on that site are on the verge of desperate, while other seem to make a pretty good point.

On to the description of falicies in my own words (according to Islam as a Accoding to christianity would probably incite a large debate)
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
- 4:171
This is one of those verses that is commonly cited in Anti-Islam falicies. The above verse contains a lot of information. A few commandments " do not commit excess", "do not say about Allah except the truth", and "do not say, three (with the rest of the verse explaining it). Do not commit excess - IMO this is saying do not do more than is possible. Do not give charity if you cannot feed your children, Do not have 4 wives when you can't afford/please 1, etc. Do not say about Allah except the truth - means Do not Lie about Allah, or make up things without proof of them. Although he is all-great/all-powerful/etc, I cannot say the reason there is only 1 God is because he killed all others. We have no way of knowing if there ever was another God, but we do know (according to Abrahamic belief) that there IS only 1 God. Do not say, three - This eliminates the possibility of a trinity. Regardless if it was Mother/Father/Son as you have used the other verse to mean or Father/Son/Holy Spirit or 3 pieces of the Holy "Body/mind/soul" as some have said.

Now because It harbors on the convrsation, Let's look at 5:116 again
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
- 5:116
The verses around it show that Allah is questioning Jesus on the Last Day (Judgement Day) and covers all that he says or does not say (according to Quran). From this one shown we can extrapolate that Allah is asking if Jesus (PBUH) ever said "Take me and my mother as Deities beside Allah." To which he basically answers "No. And If I had you would know" So have people taken Jesus as God. (I think that one is self explanatory given the discussion) which means they have taken him as a deity.

Now we agree that noone claims Mary is God, or a God. But do many (and correct me if I'm wrong but nearly all)Catholics pray to Mary. Do they ask favor from her? Do some rely on her graces? These are all signs of deification. Jesus makes distinctions that he is not God saying things like "I can of my own will do nothing." and "Why do you call me good, none is Good except God" He commanded Mary to pray to God. He never said pray to me. (and I know it can be argued that there are points that could be taken Implicitly to mean it but...) He also never says plainly "I am God.". But when one prays to someone, asks their help (in a supernatural way), and relies on their grace in this life or next, It is a form of deification. You are giving the powers of God to another (not borrowed as other prophets claimed) and making them equal or nearly equal.

No Muslim would talk bad About Mary (PBUHer). But you should never find one praying to a statue of her (or any statue for that matter) or even a prayer to her. Same goes for Jesus (PBUH). as Displayed in the openning of the Quran
It is You we worship and You we ask for help
- 1:5
The you is Allah.
 
No Moslem would you mean...

Christians would pray to Jesus...

I find it funny you state that...

Although I can't fathom why anyone would pray to Mary or anyone else that is 'asleep in the dust' awaiting to be awakened...

How exactly do they answer prayer?
 
First, I do not know what you are objecting to. So I'm going to guess.
No Moslem would you mean...
No, I meant Muslim. No Muslim would pray to a statue (of Mary (PBUHer) being superficial to the statement)

Christians would pray to Jesus...
I would assume so. Although it IMO (which should be obvious) is incorrect to do so.

I find it funny you state that...
state what?

Although I can't fathom why anyone would pray to Mary or anyone else that is 'asleep in the dust' awaiting to be awakened...
I agree. We don't pray to any Prophets, or important figures except Allah. Which baffles me why some Christians have a problem with Muslims praying directly to God, while being ok with Jews doing it.

How exactly do they answer prayer?
 
First, I do not know what you are objecting to. So I'm going to guess.
No, I meant Muslim. No Muslim would pray to a statue (of Mary (PBUHer) being superficial to the statement)

I would assume so. Although it IMO (which should be obvious) is incorrect to do so.

state what?

I agree. We don't pray to any Prophets, or important figures except Allah. Which baffles me why some Christians have a problem with Muslims praying directly to God, while being ok with Jews doing it.
I dont have a problem with muslims praying to god as long as it is to the god that is love, peace, forgiveness, kindness and compassion
 
I dont have a problem with muslims praying to god as long as it is to the god that is love, peace, forgiveness, kindness and compassion
There are many Attributes to God. Love, Peace, Mercy, Grace, Just, etc. Many people nowadays want to forget the just part. Some Hadiths say 99 attributes or names of God. Some say the 99 represents a large number.
 
Sorry BJN, I missed that the subject of the following sentence referred to the subject of the previous sentence... I read that wrong..

- But you should never find one praying to a statue of her (or any statue for that matter) or even a prayer to her. Same goes for Jesus (PBUH). as Displayed in the openning of the Quran
 
1. "Ah’doh’nai"–-Merciful L-rd. The four letter name of G-d (Y-H-V-H), the Tetragammaton, is always regarded as the Supreme expression of G-d’s mercy and Divine love.

2. "Ah’doh’nai"–-Merciful L-rd. The Talmud in Rosh Hashanah 17b, explains that the name of G-d, the Tetragammaton, is repeated in order to underscore G-d’s declaration: I am the same merciful G-d before a person sins, and the same merciful and forgiving G-d after the person has sinned.

3. "Ayl"–-Powerful G-d. It is the all-powerful nature of G-d to be good and forgiving.

4. "Rachoom"–-Compassionate. The Hebrew word "rachoom" is derived from the root of the Hebrew word, "rechem," a mother’s womb, for it is the one who bears the child who possesses ultimate love. So is G-d’s forgiveness based on His ultimate love for His creations.

5. "V’cha’noon"–-the Hebrew word "chayn" means grace. G-d always tries to see the good in people and never tires of finding justification to forgive His people. The two terms "chanoon" and "rachoom," merciful and gracious, are often linked to one another.

6. "Erech ah’pah’yim"–-this phrase is frequently translated as long-suffering or slow to anger. G-d is not quick to punish sinners, always offering them opportunities to win the struggle against the evil enticements. The fact that the Hebrew word "apayim" (anger) is plural, is interpreted by some commentaries to indicate that G-d is long-suffering for both the virtuous and the wicked.

7. "Rav chesed"–-Abundance in goodness. G-d grants goodness to humans beyond what they deserve. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (1808-1888, the great Bible commentator and leader of German Jewry) defines the term "chesed," to mean, love translated into action.

8. "Emet"–-Truth. G-d is true to Himself, rewarding those who are obedient to His will, and pursuing His plans for the salvation of humankind.

9. "No’tzayr chesed l’ah’lah’feem"–-G-d keeps His mercy for thousands of generations, and reserves reward and recompense to the remotest descendants. A good deed performed by a person in one generation, is a source of strength reaching far beyond the scope of that person’s lifetime and serves as a blessing for later generations.

10. "No’say ah’vohn"–-G-d forgives iniquity.

11. "Va’feh’shah"–-G-d forgives transgressions.

12. "V’chah’tah’ah"–-G-d forgives sin. The Talmud details the differences between "ah’vohn," "feh’shah," and "chah’tah’ah"–iniquity, transgression and sin. "Ah’vohn" or "ah’vohn’oht" (in the plural) are deliberate misdeeds. "P’shah’eem," transgressions, are rebellious deeds. "Chah’tah’oht," sins, are inadvertent trespasses of omission or commission. In effect, Moses petitions G-d, that when Israel sins before Him and repents, to regard their premeditated sins as errors.

13. "V’nah’kay"–-G-d cleanses. According to some commentators, this underscores the greatness of G-d’s mercy, enabling a human being to be entirely renewed through teshuvah, repentance. Others read the 13th attribute as "V’nah’kay lo y’nah’keh," that G-d will by no means clear the guilty, that G-d will never obliterate the eternal and unbridgeable distinction between light and darkness, or between good and evil.

Some commentators, such as Rabbi Joseph Hertz (1872-1946, Hungarian-born Rabbi and Bible scholar, Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom from 1913 until his death) argue that G-d’s goodness can not destroy G-d’s justice. Each sinner must bear the consequence of his misdeeds. Punishments for sin are thus not vindictive, but remedial.

Some Chassidic interpreters explain this to mean that G-d holds parents responsible for not giving their children a proper religious and moral upbringing. While the unfairness of such accountability seems rather blatant, it is certainly true that the bad habits of parents are, too often, repeated by their children, for whom parents are the primary role models.

As we have previously noted, the brother of the Chazon Ish (R’ Avraham Yeshaya Karelitz,1878-1953, acknowledged as a foremost leader of Jewry) was once asked: If mortals are supposed to imitate G-d, are they permitted to imitate G-d’s vengeance? He answered: If one’s vengeance is preceded by 12 qualities of mercy, then perhaps the vengeance is permissible.

How fortunate are we, Israel, to have a G-d, a Divine Power, who longs for His children to return and is ceaselessly prepared to grant His people forgiveness.

May you be blessed.
Untitled Document
 
There are many Attributes to God. Love, Peace, Mercy, Grace, Just, etc. Many people nowadays want to forget the just part. Some Hadiths say 99 attributes or names of God. Some say the 99 represents a large number.

You must not confuse god with the devil. god is love compassion ect. the devil is hate , revenge lack of compassion ect. religions sometimes make the mistake of saying god is the devil.
 
You must not confuse god with the devil. god is love compassion ect. the devil is hate , revenge lack of compassion ect. religions sometimes make the mistake of saying god is the devil.
Not many, if any, Muslims would make that mistake. Shaytan (satan, devil, etc.) is very well emphasized as evil and wrong.

Although I have to dissagree that Revenge is completely wrong all the time. There are better options usually, but there are righteous revenges. Such as justice for murdering someone. It is clearly revenge, but allowed. It can be forgiven or its sentence can be alleviated to jail/ lashes/ or a combination of other punishments. But death penalty for murder is a form of revenge, considered righteous, but not the most righteous.
 
Verifying who the rulers of the World are and so forth may extend to the Metaphysical flow-setters we have in the divine connections, like what glowing~threads developers of all kinds of things, from games to Stories Wish towards and follow.
 
Not many, if any, Muslims would make that mistake. Shaytan (satan, devil, etc.) is very well emphasized as evil and wrong.

Although I have to dissagree that Revenge is completely wrong all the time. There are better options usually, but there are righteous revenges. Such as justice for murdering someone. It is clearly revenge, but allowed. It can be forgiven or its sentence can be alleviated to jail/ lashes/ or a combination of other punishments. But death penalty for murder is a form of revenge, considered righteous, but not the most righteous.

the only act of killing in gods eyes that is ok is self defense
 
the only act of killing in gods eyes that is ok is self defense
And justice for murder, and in very specific ways causing corruption in the land. But as the Quran, Bible, Mouhammed (PBUH), and Jesus(PBUH) said, the better option is patience and forgiveness.
 
And justice for murder, and in very specific ways causing corruption in the land. But as the Quran, Bible, Mouhammed (PBUH), and Jesus(PBUH) said, the better option is patience and forgiveness.
That is part of the problem... Capitol Punishment does not decrease the crime...any crime... more folks are glad to be killed and publicized...they see a form of fame in being put to death by the powers that be as a revolt...

Capitol Punishment, Execution as a penalty for a crime is violence, and serves to perpetuate more violence...an endless circle of violence...that should be proof enough that G!d would not indicate it is correct but that the vengeful mind of man was involved in those words.
 
That is part of the problem... Capitol Punishment does not decrease the crime...any crime... more folks are glad to be killed and publicized...they see a form of fame in being put to death by the powers that be as a revolt...

Capitol Punishment, Execution as a penalty for a crime is violence, and serves to perpetuate more violence...an endless circle of violence...that should be proof enough that G!d would not indicate it is correct but that the vengeful mind of man was involved in those words.
Capitol Punishment works, until you give people fame for it... and ways to beat the system.
 
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