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EdgyDolmen

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I started participating in this forum about the middle of last month. This weekend I decided to shut up and read previous remarks. I thought I could come up with something new. Not so! There seems to be nothing new except for certain persons unique abilities of explanation. So, with that in mind I will share the following.

Borrowed from Thomas Cathcart.

DIMITRI: If Atlas holds up the world, what holds up Atlas?
TASSO: Atlas stands on the back of a turtle.
DIMITRI: What does the turtle stand on?
TASSO: Another turtle.
DIMITRI: And what does "that" turtle stand on?
TASSO: My dear Dimitri, it's turtles all the way down!

This ancient Greek dialogue illustrates the philosophical notion of infinite regress, something that always comes up beside First Cause -- of life, of the universe, of time and space and most significantly, the Creator. Something must have created the Creator or in this case, the turtle. Its Creators all the way down or up, depending upon where you start.

If infinite regress is getting you nowhere fast you might consider the doctrine of creation ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) or as the great John Lennon (in a slightly different context) put it, "Before Elvis, there was nothing."

Seems the question becomes -- challenging the primacy of sensory experience what sort of data is certain and why. Is it the way of gathering facts about the world, say seeing -- is that more dependable than others -- say, an absolute leap of faith?
 
Tough one. When we are talking about the Very Beginning, all one has is faith or guesswork. Science cannot explain how the Universe came from nothing, though some of quantum mechanics suggest it is possible for something to come from nothing. But it is only theory.

At this point, aside from a fascinating discussion point, I'm not sure anything more can be said.
 
A Buddhist monk said... with all there is needed to improve our relationship with this life...and the living...our concern for the afterlife is unwarranted.

I would think that would include the beginning...
 
Does not Aristotle's Metaphysics offer something between empiricism and the absolute leap of faith?
 
Maybe there is no beginning of existence and no end. That's how it seems to me.
I agree with the monk.
 
Edgy, it has been said that we humans have finite minds. The finite cannot comprehend the infinite. This is why, in Buddhism anyway, while it is fun to contemplate what happened billions of years ago, and what might happen billions of years from now, our main job is to just concentrate on right here, right now, and work on what improvements we can make today.
 
Declaring definitively you know the unknowable is insanity... Debating the unknown is mental masturbation.... Contemplating the unknown.... admirable past time, you know, once poverty, hunger, morality, crime, and such are solved....
 
Please remember that scientists have declared, in the past, that everything has been discovered, and that there is nothing more to be learned ...
 
Thomas said:
Please remember that scientists have declared, in the past, that everything has been discovered, and that there is nothing more to be learned ...
Click to expand...
Who, what, where, when?

In 1898, he was appointed as the United States Commissioner of Patents, and held that post until 1901. In that role, he is famous for purportedly saying "Everything that can be invented has been invented."[2] However, this has been debunked as apocryphal by librarian Samuel Sass.[3] In fact, Duell said in 1902:
In my opinion, all previous advances in the various lines of invention will appear totally insignificant when compared with those which the present century will witness. I almost wish that I might live my life over again to see the wonders which are at the threshold.[4]
Click to expand...

Best thing about science? there is no be all end all book that says that we cannot add to or change....science adds to and changes on a regular basis...the old science books are historical records...of the thinking of THAT day/year/century oh so many years ago...

if only religions....would provide a real update to their books...but they have been annointed and we are stuck with them until the religion itself dies...
 
wil said:
if only religions....would provide a real update to their books...but they have been annointed and we are stuck with them until the religion itself dies...
Click to expand...

Science and religion work from different premises, the thing you would call religion I would call the mortal institution of religion. I do not think they are the same.
 
Thomas said:
Please remember that scientists have declared, in the past, that everything has been discovered, and that there is nothing more to be learned ...
Click to expand...

I usually enjoy your post but this reply misses the mark. In my opinion.

Although it is true that ignorant people have made such remarks about science they too have made similar remarks about theology. I personally think neither can possibly be accurate. I support your choice to believe as you will.

There are countless disagreements over the meaning of infinity and eternity. I contend that eternity is recurrent time with endless duration and infinity is recurrent space with endless vastness. Time/Space/Turtles. Works for me!
 
"Although it is true that ignorant people have made such remarks about science they too have made similar remarks about theology."

--> I agree.
 
Nick I believe over the years has done an admirable job keeping us posted on out of the norm things theologians have said about science, scientists have said about theology, science and theologians and things theologians have said about scientists and theology as well.

Throw a comment from an atheist, a government or three, or a corporation or new date for the end of times...he's been trying to keep us abreast of the situation...
 
Wil, thanks for the comment.

There seems to be a 'natural antagonism' between theologians and scientists. (I also believe there is no disagreement between 'true religion' and 'true science'.) I hope all of us can continue to bring the two groups closer together.
 
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