Question on traditional Karmic Law

Karma is just a law, as Hermes said. That's the traditional view. However, these days, the term 'karma' is also used as a shortcut way to describe the effects of karma. So when someone says, 'my karma' ... what they are actually saying is 'the actions returned to me (not me the ego me, but me the soul) due to the law of karma. Since it is just action, it is returned. Not the action itself, but an action with impact of equal value. Karma can be circular amongst souls. A impacts B, B impacts C, C impacts D, then D impacts A. The one key ingredient is that impact of the same amount returns. However to use a money analogy, it can also be spread out. You can pay back a dollar over more time by paying a penny at a time. Again, it's the impact, not at all like an eye for an eye. Yogis under tapas can have a ton come back at once ... so although they 'spent' the pennies, it can come back in a dollar, and quite suddenly.

Another common misconception is that it's ALL karma. So some guy who doesn't bother to fix his car says, "it's my karma that my car broke down, boo-hoo." Well, that's wrong. It's just his own stupidity, called anava in Sanskrit.

Yet another misconception is an excuse not to help ... "Why help that guy, it's his karma to be in that situation." ... Again this is an error ... because it's also your karma to be there noticing, and lack of action is also action, so therefore now some of that will be transferred to you. So in this sense, it's far more about the karma you're creating now, rather than what's been done. The way out of the karmic circle is to stop creating it ... at least the negative stuff. This is called punya, or merit.

So yes, it's the ultimate fairness law. No soul is spared, but neither are we spared from moksha.

Not sure if this will help, and I'm sure there are differing views. There always are.
 
Hermes said:
I am asking this from our learned Buddhist friends mainly but Hindus and all others welcome to chime in. The basic premise of the dilemma is how much karmic consequence incurs for those who are mentally challenged. I know that karma looks at actions but my understanding is that intentions are perhaps part of it. My training is of esoteric western school (Agni Yoga) and I think(if I remember properly) in the Teaching(AY) intentions are mitigated. In other words if one is a bad father or son based on your predisposition and emotional baggage(mental illness) who is this factor into the karmic balance? On the other hand every negative act could be explained and psychoanalyzed.
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IMO, that dilemna and more and less going deep in to the thoughts of that dilemna is the main cause for attempting actions that can be categorized as evil karma.
But letting go of that thought is hard.
http://www.buddha-statues.info/blog/emotions/3-ways-to-let-go-of-resentments
 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.​
 
While reading above posts, it seems the definition of karma is quite complex and it is not possible to have a full understanding (for simple-headed people like me, at least). :)
However, according to me, and what I choose to follow is that the Intentions define the effect of Karma, Anything done with a good motive will gather good karma and anything done with evil intentions will bring bad karma.
Karma is action, For any action to happen there should be some intention which fuels that activity, and that intention will either be good or evil.
 
I have a simplistic view... If I shove a wrecking ball away from its resting state.... doesn't matter which direction... eventually it will come back to me with all of its mass and energy...not always from the direction I shoved it.... however should I change my behaviour....when it comes back around, I may not be there.
 
Hermes said:
The basic premise of the dilemma is how much karmic consequence incurs for those who are mentally challenged. I know that karma looks at actions but my understanding is that intentions are perhaps part of it.
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A complicated subject to be sure, but I think the Bhagavadgita explains it quite well. Intention is indeed the key. You see, even a seemingly good act could still result in negative Karma. If, it were done with the intention of reaping the benefits of having done so. In other words, if one goes around intentionally doing good or bad things strictly for their own benefit on this planet, it results in negative Karma. In order to achieve positive Karma one must remove attachment and ego from the equation and do all things out of a sense of duty. Regardless of consequence here on earth.

So, those who are mentally challenged or those with a misguided sense of duty, through no fault of their own, achieve neither negative nor positive Karma in the traditional sense. In other words, their actions are not held against him.

You may find this link helpful,

 
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wanderer said:
However, according to me, and what I choose to follow is that the Intentions define the effect of Karma
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This seems at first glance simple and rational. One wrinkle that I do not know if it affects your statement or not. That is the old saw "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions".

I'm not sure I would agree that acts out of a misguided sense of duty should be fault free, for example.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"
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One of my Grandma's favorite sayings. It generally followed a failed attempt at explaining our actual intentions after breaking something.

Devils' Advocate said:
I'm not sure I would agree that acts out of a misguided sense of duty should be fault free, for example.
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I've wrestled with that one a number of times, but I don't think an individual is necessarily fault free in this instance, just that Karmic law is not applied in the same way.
 
Until someone can show me how to separate karma from moral values, I reject the idea, as I'm told it, as illogical.

If karma is a judgement on the intent, that surely places it in the mental/moral sphere. If in the mental/moral sphere, then I cannot see how the judgement/fruit of karma can be said to be 'mechanical', because the value of the act – for good or ill – is determined on the basis of the will, on what the acting agent has in mind, not the act in itself.

So it's mechanical only if one allows a dispassionate but nevertheless rational nature – a mind – determining the value of the intention.

Example: A man cuts another man's leg off. Good karma or bad? Depends on why he did it. Furthermore, was there man with the leg there, the man with the saw there, has prior karma brought them to this conjunction, or just that 'stuff happens'?

Namaste Jesus said:
Intention is indeed the key. You see, even a seemingly good act could still result in negative Karma. If, it were done with the intention of reaping the benefits of having done so.
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Aquinas makes the same point in the example of giving alms to the poor. Does one do it to help the poor, or increase one's prestige?

Namaste Jesus said:
In order to achieve positive Karma one must remove attachment and ego from the equation and do all things out of a sense of duty. Regardless of consequence here on earth.
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Whoa! That's the kind of thing I might say, I'm surprised to hear you say it.

The following is rhetorical – I'm not asking for an answer, just putting it out there.

Acting out of a sense of duty means putting oneself to one side, for the sake of 'the greater good'. It's the surrender of 'freedom' and the surrender of 'choice'. It engages the 'virtues'; humility, etc., ... This is why I raise that point, because once you opt to choose, then you've engaged the ego, and you're de facto in a bad karma scenario.

This obviously leads me to ask what 'freedoms' and 'choices' were made in the exercise of picking a religion? Because does this process not involve shopping round until one finds a doctrine that is the most beneficial as far as the egoic self is concerned ... ('But, I know this religion is better for me!' some might say. Really? How? Have you already realised that religion? No. The only value assessment one can make is at the level of the sentiments or the ego. It's a romantic or an intellectual engagement. 'This one is right for me' because it comforts one's egoic self-image, the attachment to self in the first place ... )

But all this is way off topic ...

Namaste Jesus said:
So, those who are mentally challenged ...
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Again, it takes a 'someone' to discern a person is 'mentally challenged' with regard to a given situation, it's a value call?

Namaste Jesus said:
... or those with a misguided sense of duty, through no fault of their own ... In other words, their actions are not held against him.
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Misguided or malign? and 'through no fault of their own' ... surely this is tantamount to 'Grace' and 'Forgiveness'? I happen to see it as evidence of such, and am assured by a Tibetan Buddhist that there is room for 'grace' in Buddhism. But I have been assured by karma supporters that such an idea is abhorrent! (But then their grasp of Christian doctrine is so defective, I'm assuming their grasp of the karma is equally ill- or mis-informed.)

As long as karma is presented to me as a moral determination, but determined by an impersonal and amoral function of the cosmos, then I can see nothing but an inherent illogicality of the lower sitting in judgement of the higher.

Can anyone help?
 
Thomas said:
Until someone can show me how to separate karma from moral values, I reject the idea, as I'm told it, as illogical.


As long as karma is presented to me as a moral determination, but determined by an impersonal and amoral function of the cosmos, then I can see nothing but an inherent illogicality of the lower sitting in judgement of the higher.

Can anyone help?
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We are not punished for our sins....but by them.
 
Thomas said:
Whoa! That's the kind of thing I might say, I'm surprised to hear you say it.
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Frightening... isn't it?

Thomas said:
As long as karma is presented to me as a moral determination, but determined by an impersonal and amoral function of the cosmos, then I can see nothing but an inherent illogicality of the lower sitting in judgement of the higher.

Can anyone help?
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The short answer is no. It's far too complicated for mere mortal minds to grasp fully. Mine anyway. Especially given the fact that 2 people can do the exact same thing, with the exact same result yet, one receives positive Karma for his efforts and the other receive negative.

It's not even a question of moral vs amoral, as it's not always easy to determine which is which. It's more a question of right vs wrong within the confines of a given situation. That too is subjective however. No matter how you slice it, we always wind up back at square one. That leads me to believe that Karma has a much greater divine influence than anyone realizes and try as we may, applying human logic to the divine is an exercise in futility.
 
wil said:
Lol... many religions have used that repeatedly eh?

Ya gotta have faith...just know its true...just believe it....
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I think you've twisted things a bit here W!l. The 2 lines you've taken out of context might give that impression, but religion and whether or not one has 'faith' wasn't part of it.

The first line you included in your quote of me, "Frightening, isn't it" was a personal response to Thomas and had nothing to do with the rest of my post. The second line you quoted was just my opinion as to mortal minds not being capable of fully understanding all aspects of Karma. "Mine anyway" meaning my mortal mind, was the next line of my post which you omitted along with my explanation for feeling that way.

In my opinion, their is a divine influence at work here, but I never said one needs faith in God to feel the effects of or understand Karma.
 
Me? Twist things?

I am trying to say that when we have something unexplainable...faith, karma, virgin birth, gravity....

We have to look at whether or not we have biased notions...

Gravity we can measure....we still don't know how it works, or why it works but we know it exists and we can measure it.

the rest... we can only point to anecdotal evidence...

gravity works...always... Karma? for Hitler only after he killed 11 million people and the world stood up and gave him his dose of karma..

faith? works for some...sometimes....the rest of the time...we just didn't have enough....

I wasn't pointing fingers at you...I was using your comment that has been used by many of all faiths and in many instances... mortal minds cannot grasp the concept.... I don't believe it was out of context...leaving the first line undeleted was an oversite on my part.
 
Thomas said:
As long as karma is presented to me as a moral determination, but determined by an impersonal and amoral function of the cosmos, then I can see nothing but an inherent illogicality of the lower sitting in judgement of the higher.
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If I understand what you are saying here (and I am not sure I do), you're problem is there is no entity one can point to that keeps the karmic accounting. Is that a correct interpretation of what you are asking?
 
wil said:
Gravity we can measure....we still don't know how it works, or why it works but we know it exists and we can measure it.
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You keep trying to put things in a scientific basis, then dismissing them as being non-scientific. Gravity is not in the same category as karma.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
If I understand what you are saying here (and I am not sure I do), you're problem is there is no entity one can point to that keeps the karmic accounting. Is that a correct interpretation of what you are asking?
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Yes. And quite a lot of accounting, too. And an 'accountant' who factors in mitigating circumstances, and even 'forgiveness', which straight away means I'm getting a number of contradictory explanations offered me here.
 
In many conventional Christian circles, doesn't heaven and hell appear to be Karmic Accounting.... do this you go 'up', do that you go 'down'...burning for eternity...and there is ledger kept eh? Is your name in the book I've been asked by many a door knocker...
 
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