Greetings from Elfiet

Tea what you say can be true. It is being a bit too restrictive to say that it is always true. By your definition just about any fundamentalist leaning main stream religion should be called a cult as they are all too often about strict control and power over their adherents.
Yes, and I think that if there is fundamentalist bent to a group who practice an otherwise main stream religion should fall under the negative definition of 'cult'.

Just as often a religion is labeled a cult for no other reason than that they believe in different doctrines or practices. I.E. said doctrines are out of line with the commonly accepted ones at the time.
Indeed, that is the correct meaning of the word. If Elfiet want to know what, I think, everyone means when they use the word I think I captured the essence of it.
 
If reincarnation exists, then there is evolution of the soul. I am therefore accountable to progress my soul through this evolution process. How does one progess the soul? In what direction and what purpose? I would not say this belief has 'changed' the way I live, but rather gave it shape. Always in focus for the good of the soul. Make efforts to avoid scarring or hindering the soul.

As to the final sentence, we can get into karma and in particular karmic balance that affects us in this lifetime and reality. What I am getting at is perhaps more psychology than metaphysics, although I think they both apply. Namely this. Actions and emotions one expresses towards others can have long term consequences on ourselves - consequences which affect this life in very real ways.

Watching people as I have gone through life, I have been amazed at what one generates outward of yourself, mirrors inside of yourself just as much. Angry and bitter at those who have hurt you? If one perpetuates that outwards towards those who have wronged you, you become an angry and bitter person yourself. Which leads to real physical illness in oneself. It is astonishing how much we can hurt ourselves by generating negative emotions outwards. And even more it amazes me that so very few people realize it!

It pays to be forgiving, to not hold grudges because of the benefits you yourself get out of it. A healthier more vital you!

To put it another way - take care of your spirit in this life and the next life will take care of itself.
 
My curosity with Thomas' experience (being in a cult) is more about the relationship with other members. Was it a supported environment?
PART ONE Of TWO POSTS

Take the example of two people who fall in love. Hopefully, the relationship is marked by a deep caring concern for the well-being of the other, something that goes further than one's own validation (trophy husband or wife) or one's own gratification!

In the early days, that feeling was communal. And nearly chaste. Or maybe communal, but not chaste, but there was a real sense of 'community'. I remember a request at the end of one meeting (we were a few hundred strong by then). A young single mum with a baby had been moved into really shabby unfurnished accommodation. A call went out for any old furniture anyone could spare ... the grapevine lit up. We blitzed the flat, it was rewired, decorated and furnished over the next week. She was showered with gifts. An excess of furniture. We all believed we were in 'something special' and we were all in it together ... Having said that, there were those who treated the place like a 'knocking shop' (if you get that phrase) and this was the 70s. Nobody's perfect.

Mentorship?
More than I can put into words. I was introduced into 'the occult'. I got to know and work with 'presences'. I studied the divinatory arts.

I did a Tarot reading for someone once. 'Got a question?' I asked. 'Yes,' was the reply. 'Think it, don't say it'. We turned the cards and I did the reading. Throughout the reading I described her interior state using an analogy of a walled garden. I waffled on. She was in tears at the end (of release, she told me later). It turned out she had an image in her head of the place she wanted to live, and hunted for a good few years for the place that matched her dreams. 'What was it you were looking for?' I asked her. 'A walled garden,' she told me. Did I see it in the cards, the tea-leaves, the entrails (actually no ... we didn't do entrails), the crystal ball, the palm of the hand ... nope ... I cared. I listened. Nothing 'magic'. We can all do it ... if we have a true heart ... and maybe the gift of the gab.

In Turkey in the 13th century lived a Sufi we know in the West as Mullah Nasruddin. He is acclaimed by Afghans, Iranians, Uzbeks, and Arabs, as well as the Turkic Xinjiang area of western China. Since the Seljuk empire of 1000-1400 stretched from Turkey to the Punjab in India, his stories went from east to west and all points in between.

'How do you say such wise things?' someone asked him once. 'I have no idea,' he said. 'I just talk all the time, and when I see people's eyes light up, I listen to what I'm saying ...' Clever man.

Another time me and another guy were running a small group. Two women had been among the first, but they had 'history' and were gonna leave because they were 'unworthy'. We suggested a coffee and a chat. Now we were 'ushers' as the group leaders were called, and we were treated like royalty. Didn't ask for it, that's just the respect we had for the hierarchy. We were the same to our ushers (including the founder, whom was distant already), we were taught by the top guys. We had 'mystique'.

Walking out to the car, we naturally opened the doors for the 'ladies' (we were all 'men' and 'ladies'). Turned out the girls had wound up broke in Amsterdam, and earned their passage home on their backs. No-one had ever opened a car door for them before (without expecting something for it.) That simple act changed them both. They found themselves 'respected'. Job done. The coffee was just the filling in of the details. The trick with bad karma is to put it down and walk away.

Later, at another group, we arranged for one of the big names to come and spend time. 'Tell me which ones you're screwing,' he said. Our outrage was incandescent. We don't do that, 'that's well out of order' (we were Londoners). He laughed. 'You'll be the first,' he said. We thought he was joking ... sadly, no.

A strong supported communtity atmosphere?
In the early days. I remember bumping into a fellow student in the street. You have to understand we lived in two worlds. Our world, and the world. The two don't mix. But here was this guy from so-and-so's circle, while he and I were going about our daily lives in 'the world'. Can't explain it. Our world was in colour, the world was in black and white. It was like we knew we were in 'the matrix' while everyone around us had no idea. We stood in the middle of the busiest street in London, shaking hands ... for about five minutes. Just standing there, hands locked (I'm a firm handshake guy), grinning at each other.

Was participation 100% free choice.
Yes, but coercion is subtle, and even unintentional. We were ardent. Our world was all that mattered. The only one that counted.

Indeed, quite aware I am of the misdeeds of cults that make newspaper headlines - but this cannot be a fair representation of the majority? Or am I in one of my unrealistic bubbles? If so, feel free to POP it.
We (the good guys) had this thoroughly chivalric image of the feminine gender. It puts women on a pedestal, but it also put them in a box. They become idealised and even totemic – but they cease to be who they actually are, they are seen against the ideal of the 'type'.

So the men did all the 'work'. The 'ladies' acted as 'back-up'. The idea being that as well as our own processing of presences – 'being moved by it' when we were on the floor in lecture, and I lectured sometimes seven nights a week for years, the back-up ladies would process presences on our behalf for us to work with, but women didn't work direct. They could do Tarot, palmistry, herbalism and healing, but the real work was teaching, and that was for men to do. 'I have it to do' was something we used to say, very grandly!

So it was very Patriarchal with a capital 'P'. Hierarchical with a capital 'H'.

In the end the founder relocated to the US, established the group as a religion for tax purposes, and lived in a multi-million dollar mansion in Florida while people gave every spare penny they had in subscriptions ... He and his two sons were the only ones who enjoyed the financial benefit. They lived like rock stars. I was working during the day, and teaching from 7.30-11.00 at night for the love of it, and petrol expenses.

I left work Friday, went to my meeting, then a hamburger at an all-nighter, then me and my pal split an overnight drive to the North of England, hit the floor for our circle on Saturday and Sunday, then drove back through the night Sunday and went to work Monday morning ...

So the trick is you have no time for the world. You're too busy. I didn't see my mum and dad and sisters for months on end.

We got bigger. Groups in the US, Israel ... but the spirit went out of it, and it became a different thing altogether.

SECOND PART FOLLOWS
 
PART TWO

I was lucky. I met a lady who had a bit more fire about her, and as the nature began to change, and we were too close to the inner circle to not see what was happening, she began to chaff, and it was reasonable ... And by that time my mate had gone (he just dropped out and even broke off with me) and I found out that there were only a few of us who hadn't been screwing their students ... all the ones above us had ... we walked away.

To my best knowledge – and you soon lose touch with those you spent years with once you're out – we're the only couple to have stayed together. Thirty six years and still going strong. She has nothing good to say about it now. I, with my memories of 'moments of glory', still smile, but it's a very 'man' thing. I pulled some stunts in my day!

I don't know about 'founders', they have their own consciences to answer to. Me? She said to me once, 'you were always Catholic' and on another occasion 'You're more Buddhist than you care to admit' ... when I was in it, I gave it all I had and wanted to do 'the honourable thing' ... and like the Tarot reading or the opening car door – and there are other, way more profound moments ... I learned more about human nature then ...

Was there something in it? In the beginning, yes. I believe 'it' assisted the founder when it saw his heart was in the right place, but power corrupts, and the connection is lost ...

Once I had an interview with a student whom everyone thought mad, and possibly suicidal. They thought I was mad for seeing her. I arranged to meet in my flat after work, and on the way home I said 'I have no idea what's going on, I need help'. When I opened the door there was a presence there, an atmosphere, a serenity that rocked me on my heels. She came in. Turned out her boyfriend was lifted by the secret police in S America (these were bad times) and was never seen again. She blamed herself, going was her idea, and had convinced herself she was now living a proxy life, for him, and it was tearing her apart.

'Let him go,' was all I could think to say. 'He wants you to live your life, not an excuse for his'. It worked. Was it me? My words? Nope. Others she had confided in said the same. It did it. It was there in the room.

Those girls I mentioned? Early on, when word got round they were in some 'group' run by two guys from London, the local dealers they had been with prior to their joining (and with whom they broke off all contact), thought we were rival dealers from London trying to muscle in on their pitch. Or their women, or something. So they came to pay us a visit. We were with the girls at their squat. No lock on the front door. They just barged in and started with the verbal as they worked themselves up to give us a kicking.

My pal and I were side by side opposite them. 'Just, for a second here, shut the fuck up and listen,' we began. (We taught, for example, that the Knights of the Round Table, just one of our 'attendant presences', were inclined to 'tell it as it is' and if some ripe language suited the occasion, then they would use it). One, you walk in without knocking on the door, that's bloody rude. Two, these ladies have made their choices and you should respect that. Three, we are against drugs, they've cleaned up, so don't bring that crap in here trying to drag them back down ... (we drank in moderation, although got pissed at parties, and smoked like chimneys, living on cigarettes and tea – Lapsang Shoushong was always there when I was in the building, the ladies made sure of that! See what I mean about royalty?) As we were speaking, a 'pressure wave' swept passed our shoulders, across the room, and the five guys all tried to leave at once, scuffling to get out the door. 'What was that?' We phoned London. 'Hi you two,' he said straight away when he answered the phone. 'Something just happened,' we began. 'Yeah, I know, Don't worry. You're not alone up there, you have friends looking out for you ... see you when you get back.'

Really? Well, that's how we remember it.

So what am I saying? Sure, every following is a cult. A fan club is a cult. A golf club can be a cult. Anything that defines you as 'out of the ordinary' is a cult. A Thursday night at the bar ... But cults become a bad thing when they set you at odds with the world, and in the end, with yourself. Especially when they become elitist, because we all know we're not perfect. And really bad when isolationist, because all sorts of memes can take root.

And there are bad presences too. I stopped going so regularly, and after a long break, went back. It didn't feel the same. It didn't feel right. Not the kind of presence I was familiar with. It was uncomfortable, and the people around me didn't look happy, they looked burdened.

What was missing? The optimism.

The faith in the Good, whether it be of man, or of God.

Well, Elfiet, I don't know if this makes any sense to you and look at the bloody time! Three hours I've been here, writing, thinking, remembering ... That's my evening shot.

Upshot, then. There's a 'mass energy' in the collective that can move mountains. Do wondrous things. Work magic, maybe even miracles ...

But if you're gonna lead one, even a cult of one, you'd better be damn strong, because one thing that takes root in your student is your weakness, they're open to the best and worst of you, and you cannot help but radiate who you are, and they cannot help but play it back, amplified ... so if you're gonna take it on, you need the support of ... call it 'It' ... be it pure nature at its best, or the 'The Holy Spirit' or 'The Tao' or 'The Shekinah' or 'The Barakah' ... to heal you, because it costs in ways you can't see, and without It, it will burn you out, and then the demons move in to fill the space.

That's when you hear cult leaders blame their students, and I've heard that.

And when the blame takes hold, really gets a grip, then in the end you will want to destroy them, because they deserve no better after everything you've given them, but really, really, because deep down, they asked of you what you promised, but you couldn't find it in yourself to give, and you're looking at your own self loathing for what you've become, and what you've made of them. Be damn sure of that.

That's my take on the worst of them, the death cults. Don't know if any psychologist has figured that out. Probably. But I learned it the way I did.

I rest on my beloved. She's always right. I am and always was (in my case) a Catholic. Or a Buddhist. Love or Compassion, it's the same thing. I always believed and believe in the Other and I hope and pray the Other believes in me ... It's just that I went on a circuitous adventure to find that out ... The one and only time It spoke to me was in an empty Church after Mass. It said 'You're mine, and you're right where I want you, and if the Pope should turn up with the College of Cardinals and asks you to leave, you say, how can I, this is where I live.' And I would have. The one thing I learned from cults is you can call the Boss to order. If you can't ... walk away.

But learning to get over oneself and embrace that is a dance that goes on and on ...

... Well, my dear Elfiet, God alone knows what you'll make of all this. I've gone off on one of my introspective tangents, and end up wandering off all over the place.

I hope I'm doing the Mullah Nasruddin thing. If there's a light in your eye, I'd keep wittering on (believe me, I can, ask my beloved!). If you've glazed over with boredom, I'd shut up. But I can't see you, so I don't know ...

Best shut up, then.
 
The most important thing to remember is that there is always someone in strict control and power corrupts. Be weary.
I agree you capture the essence and the key issue I tend to overlook is level of power - as indeed power often corrupts (quite unfortunate this happens).
 
- There's a 'mass energy' in the collective that can move mountains. Do wondrous things. Work magic, maybe even miracles ...
- But learning to get over oneself and embrace that is a dance that goes on and on ...

... Well, my dear Elfiet, God alone knows what you'll make of all this. I've gone off on one of my introspective tangents, and end up wandering off all over the place.

- I hope I'm doing the Mullah Nasruddin thing. If there's a light in your eye, I'd keep wittering on (believe me, I can, ask my beloved!). If you've glazed over with boredom, I'd shut up. But I can't see you, so I don't know ...

Thomas. No, I do not find your tangents lead me to boredom. After reading through some threads, I find you are quite to the extreme opposite of boredom. Albeit, technical at times, but this contributes to the intrigue.

Regarding 'mass energy', I seemed to found and experience this through Tai Ch'i. :)

Indeed, I relate it is a dance, and I hope to find the proper graceful rhythm in my steps while remaining on the dance floor.
 
What's this? Thomas sharing on such an intimate level? The world no longer makes any sense. Just kidding old son. I really appreciate the share. Kudos!
 
If reincarnation exists, then there is evolution of the soul. I am therefore accountable to progress my soul through this evolution process. How does one progess the soul? In what direction and what purpose? I would not say this belief has 'changed' the way I live, but rather gave it shape. Always in focus for the good of the soul. Make efforts to avoid scarring or hindering the soul.

Hello Elfiet: I can add some to this from the Hindu perspective. (at least the perspective of my school of Hinduism, as Hinduism varies widely)

Yes we believe in reincarnation, and the evolution of the soul. Its a given. One 'progresses the soul' by following dharma, roughly translated as good conduct. This is best illuminated in Patanjali's yoga sutras, in the yamas and nyamas, which are the first two stages on the dharmic path. Our view is that we are the soul, so one doesn't progress the soul, but rather one just progresses.

We are creating and making karmic consequences every moment, so any adharmic action would indeed hinder the soul's progress. It's a natural progression.

Hope this is useful.
 
Actions and emotions one expresses towards others can have long term consequences on ourselves - consequences which affect this life in very real ways.

It is astonishing how much we can hurt ourselves by generating negative emotions outwards. And even more it amazes me that so very few people realize it!

It pays to be forgiving, to not hold grudges because of the benefits you yourself get out of it.
.

Quite right. Very much the thoughts I had while writing the post.
 
Elfiet,

Your strong affinity for Hinduism, Sikhism, and the Sanskrit language tell me you probably have had a recent reincarnation in that part of the world. (I would be shocked if you weren't.) Welcome back to those belief systems!
 
I too have found this all to be quite interesting. I look forward to reading more from you Elfiet.
 
Well, I'm a bit late to the party. Salaam Elfeit and welcome. While I do not have any affiliation with Hinduism, Buddhism, etc, I do know the struggle of finding the truth. Look into all facets that intrigue you. And ask yourself, "Is this correct?". I was never Catholic, and for the most part despised Catholicism form many years. It was only when I found Islam that I understood the issues I had with Catholicism, and subsequently my own Baptist upbringing of beliefs. Don't be swayed in your search by what you hear from others about religions they do not follow. If you are interested in Catholicism, speak to a Catholic. If you are interested in some issues with Catholicism from others point of view, that is fine too, but be wary that the criticisms should be reviewed in perspective of said religion.

Either way welcome to the forum. This forum is a bit slow usually as many have pointed out, but a lot of good info on many religious topics, from many people who follow each of them.
 
Thank you all for the welcome mat. Truly enjoying my time reading through some of the past threads - very thought provoking on many levels. And indeed I've been finding answers to some of my questions ... and of course... doors open to new questions.
 
Hi Elfiet
Regarding 'mass energy', I seemed to found and experience this through Tai Ch'i. :)
Indeed, I relate it is a dance, and I hope to find the proper graceful rhythm in my steps while remaining on the dance floor.
Spot on!

I've made the point elsewhere that stuff in our heads remains abstract and 'unreal' until we 'realise' it, and the realisation is through physical action and an engagement with the whole self and the whole world. Tai Ch'i is a brilliant example of that. The Liturgy is another.
 
Back
Top