evil and free will

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dauer

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Is evil good? Does God ever take away free will in order to create a percieved evil that is inevitably for the good, as in the case of a violent mental illness? How can our knowledge of mental illness be reconciled with our understanding of free will?

Bananabrain, what is the hasidic concept you mentioned?

Dauer
 
it's called the "long shorter way" and, basically, it seems to me that sometimes the long way round ends up being shorter in the long run. i'm not sure they're talking about mental illness particularly, but we all know about, say, power derived from weakness, for example. and, i suppose, sometimes we don't really know if free will is still present. take hosea's wedding of the prostitute, say, or elijah wandering round in the nip for three years. i suppose it must be possible to voluntarily relinquish elements of one's free will in order to reach higher levels of prophecy, but i don't really know how to discuss this in any meaningful fashion. and, in terms of mental illness, or indeed, evil, in a lot of ways the main thing it does is give those of us that are still able to act a chance to pitch in and do some tiqqun.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
So are you saying that you consider mental illness sometimes a lapse in free will that allows everyone else the opportunity for tikkun? That's at least about how I feel, that at times we definitely do lose our free will, but that this is for the greater good.

Dauer

Edit: Do you think there is a relationship between ovon and something done due to mental illness? Is there the potential for it to be viewed this way? I'm not so clear on what qualifies for an ovon so I may be completely off. I thought it's an aveirah in the heat of passion, like getting caught up in the yetzer hara. For me, when I am in a position such as we are talking about, it is like my yetzer hara grows and grows, but also my thinking is irrational. I supposed the irrational thinking disqualifies it as an ovon. I don't know.
 
i think we definitely lose control of our free will sometimes, but in much the same way as we would if we had some other kind of incapacity, like breaking a leg which effectively disconnects your will to walk from your ability to do so. perhaps a better example is sexual impotence, whereby (as i understand it) you just can't get it up no matter how much you want to, because you can't get the nerve impulses to go from your brain to the relevant blood vessels or whatever. as it were, your will to be happy or behave as you wish as if there were no [mental] illness becomes disconnected from the ability to carry out your wishes. i think that's different from your will itself actually changing - a will to do wrong is nonetheless free will.

as for the difference between 'avon and aveira, i don't have the precise definition - nonetheless we are required to make vidui on yom kippur for the sins we commit both intentionally and unintentionally. i suppose it's similar to the way we are responsible for dealing with the consequences of situations despite not being the principal mover behind their creation. i reckon this is probably a necessary concomitant of [other people] not being able to see the consequences of their mindful choices of free-will.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I disagree with you a little about free will. When I am manic, my thoughts can become irrational. I may know for a fact that it is a good idea to and my best option is to strike someone I care about. At this point, it's not so much free will because I no longer retain the ability to choose, unless it's how I am going to strike someone.

It's different than someone with a broken leg, because someone with a broken leg still has many choices, as well as someone who is impotent. For me there is only one choice, and it is always a good one.

When I am conflicted on an issue, it doesn't feel as good because I'm resisting. But when I am not conflicted -- which is rare -- then it feels wonderful.

If this is free will then God is a sick bastard. I would rather say it is not free will and it is somehow benefiting myself or the people around me that I struggle with this. I suppose we'll have to disagree on this.

Dauer
 
Free will is a huge problem because our thinking is to material. It seems that people see free will as some violation of cause/effect. I see what we are as complicated robots following the laws of physics.

There is one very interesting website that looks at it. It is trying to show that the soul makes no sense. But you can ignore that and just look at the brain disorders. It is amazing how dependent we are on this organ in trying to identify ourselves. It is at http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html.

Quath
 
if i understand you correctly, dauer, you're saying it is no longer free will if you do not have the ability to choose at a given time. in which case, i'd have to refine my definition and say that the amount of choice you have varies according to circumstances, albeit sometimes it's very small - for example, if one falls off a cliff, one cannot exercise one's choice not to be subject to gravity. i hope you don't think this flippant. in other words i think there are both environmental and personal "will-spaces", but that in certain circumstances these are severely restricted for various reasons outside one's control. maybe one could boil it down to "choice and control are two different things". you must understand it's a bit tough to completely understand your PoV, as much as i try to empathise, because it's outside my personal experience.

I would rather say it is not free will and it is somehow benefiting myself or the people around me that I struggle with this.
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i think this is the most positive way to approach the situation and certainly a way to isolate and elevate the sparks of holiness within what must feel like the most horrible of circumstances.

It seems that people see free will as some violation of cause/effect. I see what we are as complicated robots following the laws of physics.
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i guess you could do that, but i personally would add the caveat that there are certain things that the laws of physics *as we understand them at present* do not take into account, because they don't appear to affect empirical observation of results. from my PoV, it was G!D that Established and Decided what the laws of physics would be and how they would work, so that we could deduce them and otherwise work them out for ourselves.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
if i understand you correctly, dauer, you're saying it is no longer free will if you do not have the ability to choose at a given time. in which case, i'd have to refine my definition and say that the amount of choice you have varies according to circumstances, albeit sometimes it's very small - for example, if one falls off a cliff, one cannot exercise one's choice not to be subject to gravity. i hope you don't think this flippant. in other words i think there are both environmental and personal "will-spaces", but that in certain circumstances these are severely restricted for various reasons outside one's control.
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It seems like it's really a matter of where each of us is coming from, due to experience but also do to our theological positions. For me, I have no problem saying that sometimes we lose our free will for the benefit of ourselves and others. For you, at least it seems like you feel the need to reconcile what you know about the world with the idea that we always have free will. But as you say, what I have been through is not exactly something most people can relate to.

you must understand it's a bit tough to completely understand your PoV, as much as i try to empathise, because it's outside my personal experience.
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I've figured out basic rules that I've revealed to help determine how I will act when I am like that which, Baruch HaShem, isn't much anymore.

1. Proximity. Distance equals time. When I am further away from someone, my mind often has the time it needs to talk itself down. When I am closer, I have no time.

2. If there is a physical threat I will usually hold off. If there are risks that go beyond my body I will not. Risks for which I would hold off would be a case of sensing someone would hurt me, or if I am driving a car. When it happened while driving a car, it was after I stopped and called someone to ask for help that it finally caught up with me.

3. I become irrational so it doesn't matter what my relationship is with the other person. In fact, it will seem like the only way to get beyond that particular situation.

4. It feels good, sometimes wonderful, but I feel horrible after.

It is for these reasons that I like to use the paradigm of the yetzer hara and yetzer hatov. For a moment the only thing that concerns me is my physical body. I can't see beyond the moment. It is my base drive to violence that seems to rule my conciousness. For the many years that I believed it was in my power to fully reverse this, I made no progress. If it is bad enough, which is usually, I find myself helpless. This doesn't mean I don't make a decision. I do. I choose the best decision, to hurt someone I may or may not care about. It's like being drunk, I think. I've never been drunk. It wouldn't be smart because I'm bipolar.

I don't expect you to have anything to say to this. I'm just trying to better convey what my experience is like.

Dauer
[/QUOTE]
 
These four rules;

Sounds very true.
Its always really interesting to think when your in a difficult situation or a conflict what you would do if you weren't scared. I do it all the time.

What i've realised in relation to interations with other people is that you perspective of the situation will determine what you think they will do. When people are unsure of what to do they will look at familiar situations and try to fit into them. I think most of what we think about are illusions that we are used to and that is something that it is easy to break if you distance yourself enough. Jedi Mind Tricks
 
If only that were the case. Unfortunately, I excel at that type of mental self-check.That's why it used to come as such a shock to people who didn't know me very well if down the road I ended up assaulting them. Therapists can't make progress with me on this because they realize that I am living what they are trying to teach. I have a chemical imbalance

When the balance is weighted quickly, I fly and then fall. This is characteristic of one who is bipolar. I also don't fear. When I fear, I don't act. When I act it's because it's the only possible solution and will inevitably be for the best. This is why I call it irrational. My thinking defies the logic I usually live by. It's also one of the reasons I'm taking up a more disciplined meditation practice.

I get angry sometimes, very. But I remain rational. This is different.

Thank you for playing doctor though. I hope I don't owe you a co-pay.

Dauer
 
dauer said:
When the balance is weighted quickly, I fly and then fall. This is characteristic of one who is bipolar.
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What does Bipolar mean?
 
Kaspar said:
What does Bipolar mean?
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Okay. Now I understand the misunderstanding. Bipolar Disorder is a mood disorder that is mostly defined by two -- bi -- opposite -- polar -- moods. The first mood is depression and the second is mania, which is the opposite of depression and isn't always as fun as it might sound. The part of the disorder that I find myself struggling with mostly is mania, although now that I'm on the right medications I'm feeling much better. Here are some signs and symptoms that may occur with mania:

Increased energy, activity, and restlessness

Excessively "high," overly good, euphoric mood

Extreme irritability

Racing thoughts and talking very fast, jumping from one idea to another

Distractibility, can't concentrate well

Little sleep needed

Unrealistic beliefs in one's abilities and powers

Poor judgment

Spending sprees

A lasting period of behavior that is different from usual

Increased sexual drive

Abuse of drugs, particularly cocaine, alcohol, and sleeping medications

Provocative, intrusive, or aggressive behavior

Denial that anything is wrong
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That's from

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm

In the past I've cycled very quickly, but now that I'm in my 20s the cycles may be slowing down. Typically children cycle much faster than adults. It's still debatable whether I'm usually just getting manic or whether I'm both manic and depressed at the same time. Sometimes that can happen. It's called a mixed state.

Being bipolar has allowed me to feel much more for people with mental illness and also for those without it that members of society have labelled as other. Because of all of the trials I have gone through in my own life, I am able to recognize clearly that sometimes people are acting out of poor judgement due to nature or nurture, and often they are just doing what they believe is best. I don't condone harmful behavior, but I do affirm the value of an individual's struggle to come to terms with their reality. And I do affirm the value of the individual.

I've said more than you asked for. Did my answer to your question make sense?

Dauer
 
dauer,

my own experience with various loved ones around mental illness have educated me to a certain extent, but i applaud your candour - there needs to be more knowledge and less stigma around it. possibly a productive theological response would be helpful, rather than an insulting combination of "on some level it must be punishment" and "pray for help", which i fear is all too common.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Thanks Dauer,
I didn't realise you had a mental illness I thought you were just talking about things in general. I say mental illness but really i see it as a spectrum that we are all on of manic and depressed and some are more and some are less unbalanced so it seems that you fall heavily on either end. I think teenagers like myself are more unbalanced than adults because of their hormones which is unfair for them to have less free will at a time of growing up in our society.
 
Dear Dauer

I admire your courage and feel sure you will find that which you seek, and go on to help others who are misunderstood. Did you mention on the other thread whether you have tried flower essences? My book says morning glory and yerba mate.

I found this when I did a search

"I Have Been Using The flower essences to aid me throughout a
difficult episoid of biopolar two. The results have been very positive and clearly an alternative to mental illness. Thank You Marion"



Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Sacredstar

I haven't used flower essences although they were mixed into some wholistic healing that I've had in the past. I haven't really had much trouble with it lately, and when I do it is very brief. I really need a lasting change, which as I've said is why I've begun meditating more regularly.


.........

Kaspar

I agree with you that it is a spectrum. Everyone has moods. A chemical imbalance leads to moods that aren't so logical.

.......

BB,

I agree with you. You already know my response, which is to say that all of creation is good, including that which we perceive as evil, and in some way it is a benefit, whether by stimulating goodness or testing or promoting change in unchangable times. For me this question isn't so different from the ones provoked by the Holocaust. I don't believe that the fact that evil is good means we should allow evil to continue. I think part of the role of evil is to serve as a challenge, a challenge to find a way to overcome it. It promotes tikkun on every level.

I see someone I perceive as evil and I realize a)I want to purge those qualities from myself. b)I want to learn ways of dealing with people who are like that. c)I want to help anyone who has been hurt by them. d)I want to try and help them. e)I don't want to do anything that would lead anyone into that same mentality. f)I want to do my best to make situations better so that future generations are less likely to be like them. etc etc

I don't know if this will show up on here:

???? ??? ? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??

Blessed [are] You, Hashem our God, Ruler [of] the universe -- is olam both temporal and spatial at the same time because I saw this translated by waskow as space-time -- [who] makes peace and creates evil.

Is there a prayer praising God for the existence of evil alongside good? Does this particular prayer exist for another reason? Is there another prayer that could serve the same purpose? Is there a halakhic reason not to say such a prayer? I was thinking of attaching a clause from Bereisheet about it being good, but then I thought that would get cumbersome, and I might need to translate the grammar, which I can't do.

Dauer

Edit: It didn't work so here's translit --for you I will even spell elokeinu differently: Baruch Atah Hashem Elokeinu melech ha-olam oseh shalom oo'vorei ra.

Alternatively, in order to end on a positive note:

borei ra v'oseh shalom.

creates evil and makes peace.

Dauer
 
or

"out of the darkness comes the light, the more the dark shadows draw close to you the larger your light becomes"

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
 
Sacredstar said:
or

"out of the darkness comes the light, the more the dark shadows draw close to you the larger your light becomes"

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar
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Thank you Sacredstar. I was actually trying to use a quote from Isaiah to show that God creates both good and evil, and therefore both are good. Actually, just before that he says that God forms light and creates darkness. But I'm really trying to make a point about the fact that evil is good for its own reasons, and not that there is hope. I'm also not sure that would fit into the format of the bracha. The only issue of the order between peace and evil is ending on a depressing note. I don't want to be depressing.

Dauer
 
But does not all light come out of the primordial darkness? I wrote a thread on this I'll see if I can find it.

being love

Sacredstar
 
Sacredstar

Either way, what does that have to do with making a clear and succinct emphasis of the inherent goodness of evil as a part of God's creation? It seems to get away from my intention for the bracha which is to highlight the goodness of evil because God, in benevolence, created evil as a part of the system of our reality.


Dauer
 
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