Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
I've never had such an experience myself. At least not that I'm aware of. I guess it's like dreaming in color. Some do, some don't.
A Thought Provoking Question...
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BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
Just to be the stick in the mud, the meaning represented by his not being able to control the others is just that. His concious mind, while knowing this is a dream, realizes in the real world his ideas are not able to control others' minds. That we are all independant, and must all find our own concious thoughts and there is nothing he can do to alter that.
Yeah, that's about it.
It was just the opposite for me. I think I was in High School before I realized that I wasn't the only one.
My Grandnephew went through that stage. He would simply tell us what was what. Now he's more inclined to ask if a notion of his is true or not. Thing is, he's very selective about who he asks, because he's usually already made up his mind. I'm just grateful that he doesn't automatically dismiss things as impossible and has maintained his sense of wonder.
They are your dreams...the people in your dreams are capable of whatever you can dream them to be capable of...
I tend to agree. 'Mysticism' as it's understood today is quite modern, and far removed from what the term actually meant. In todays' parlance, 'mysticism' means a subjective 'other-worldly' or 'spiritual' insight or experience which can, as you point out, be explained neurologically and/or psychologically.
Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
Glad to hear that. Too often formal education learns such things out of them.
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Second week of school, so perhaps I'm a bit jaded: my students so far seem to have no imagination, which I think is also something that formal education forces out of them.
Sad, but true. There was a sign on the wall in my 1st grade class that read, 'THINK' a simple premise that I follow to this day. Of course now I know what it really meant was, don't think- 'MEMORIZE'.
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Yeah, that's the way it is with standardized tests. At least your grandnephew isn't falling victim to the 'memorize' mentality and is tackling larger issues, especially at such a young age.
Regarding the OP:
As a trad, of course, I would argue otherwise, with reservations, as the various spiritisms of the last century has spawned a whole lot of nonsense, but I have not closed the doors of the mind to 'magical realism' and the realms of the psyche.
But 'independent thought' does deserve a note of caution. I tend to see the kind of thing as a message from one mind to another, pre-recorded, as it were. Something left in your inbox. A bit like a ghost in real-time. There's a huge difference between a ghost, which is psychic residue and incapable of 'independent thought' – it's not a conscious entity – and a spirit which, if of a certain degree, is capable of intellectual independence and with whom one could dialogue. Not someone to be entertained lightly.
If there is dialogue – and not simply your subconscious putting words into the visitor's mouth – then you're into a quite different state of affairs. Assuming that it's not the case that both – the dreamer and the visitor – are asleep, then the visitor would have to be capable of holding a telepathic discussion with someone whilst doing whatever it was they were doing ... quite a feat of 'multi-tasking'! And if the visitor was, what does that tell us?
It also raises the question of invasion and possession – how easy is it for an entity to enter one's dreams?
If we accept the answer to the question as 'yes', then a number of less-than-comfortable questions follow, not the least being how could you then be sure that your own thought was 'independent'?
As ever, and as someone famously said: 'Kids ask all the best questions'.
The 'obvious' answer is no. The people in our dreams are manifestations of the process of the mind. They are psychological and/or neurological phenomena. Even insights and intuitions, which may well manifest to the conscious mind as realisations or knowings, rise from the subconscious mind ... indeed most of what we consider 'conscious' activity is actually triggered in the unconscious before we are conscious of what we are doing ... so the better answer is, I suppose, we do not know our own minds enough to make such determinations, or jump to certain conclusions.
As a trad, of course, I would argue otherwise, with reservations, as the various spiritisms of the last century has spawned a whole lot of nonsense, but I have not closed the doors of the mind to 'magical realism' and the realms of the psyche.
But 'independent thought' does deserve a note of caution. I tend to see the kind of thing as a message from one mind to another, pre-recorded, as it were. Something left in your inbox. A bit like a ghost in real-time. There's a huge difference between a ghost, which is psychic residue and incapable of 'independent thought' – it's not a conscious entity – and a spirit which, if of a certain degree, is capable of intellectual independence and with whom one could dialogue. Not someone to be entertained lightly.
If there is dialogue – and not simply your subconscious putting words into the visitor's mouth – then you're into a quite different state of affairs. Assuming that it's not the case that both – the dreamer and the visitor – are asleep, then the visitor would have to be capable of holding a telepathic discussion with someone whilst doing whatever it was they were doing ... quite a feat of 'multi-tasking'! And if the visitor was, what does that tell us?
It also raises the question of invasion and possession – how easy is it for an entity to enter one's dreams?
If we accept the answer to the question as 'yes', then a number of less-than-comfortable questions follow, not the least being how could you then be sure that your own thought was 'independent'?
As ever, and as someone famously said: 'Kids ask all the best questions'.
Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
My son actually started school in the states. It seemed like he was learning a lot and fast, but if you asked him a 'what if' or a 'suppose that' he drew a blank. Not the only reason, but one of the reasons I headed back home.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Perhaps he is a reincarnation of some Rinpoche Lama or it is the Second coming?
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Yeah, critical thinking skills get lost in the mix too. Too much focus, at least in social studies, on the teleological approach that everything inevitably led to where we're at now and at no point could we have gone a different way. I know that creeps into my teaching, but that's more because my chair has all of us in the department cover concepts in the same way so that students are better prepared for the standardized tests, but other times through my own carelessness.
It would appear that my grandnephew answered his own question last night and quite well too. Here's what he said:
"Hey Uncle, remember that dream thing I asked you about the other day? I think I figured it out. We were looking at it all wrong. Yeah well, if dreams come from our subconscious and we're still dreaming when we're about to wake up, then that's why we know we're dreaming, because our conscious mind sees it. Then, when our conscious mind sees it we're able to control ourselves in the dream. Only, the subconscious is still dreaming so only it can control the other people. Understand? Basically it's the subconscious mind that thinks independent of the conscious mind, not the people themselves."
Game, Set and Match!
I think I'll have him work on time travel next......
"Hey Uncle, remember that dream thing I asked you about the other day? I think I figured it out. We were looking at it all wrong. Yeah well, if dreams come from our subconscious and we're still dreaming when we're about to wake up, then that's why we know we're dreaming, because our conscious mind sees it. Then, when our conscious mind sees it we're able to control ourselves in the dream. Only, the subconscious is still dreaming so only it can control the other people. Understand? Basically it's the subconscious mind that thinks independent of the conscious mind, not the people themselves."
Game, Set and Match!
I think I'll have him work on time travel next......
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Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
My son's first teacher had 35 students to contend with. Nice gal, but she was forced to take a , 'one size fits all' approach to teaching. I raised my concerns to the Principal, but was only told not to worry, by the time he reaches Middle School, the heard will have thinned out considerably! I took that to mean, those who can't keep up or learn at a different level would be left behind. I decided to leave the school system behind instead.
Hell, I'll go along with that. Are you sure this bloke's only 11?
Didn't you once tell me he had already worked that out?
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That's a lot of students for a kindergarten or first grade class. The largest I ever experienced personally was when I student taught in a class of 48 high schoolers. Parents were complaining and the district was trying to get the total below 40, but refused to hire any more teachers. Never did get below 45 per class. Aussie, I think you made a fine choice leaving that school system.
He's what my Grandma would have termed an old soul.
Not exactly. He just rejected the idea that you could alter the future by changing the past. The way he put it, if you traveled back in time and met your past self, that self would be meeting his future self, but the meeting will have taken place in each of your present. Good Grief..... I fear Rod Serling will emerge from the shadows any minute now.
Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
Damn, there goes my head again.....The way he put it, if you traveled back in time and met your past self, that self would be meeting his future self, but the meeting will have taken place in each of your present. Good Grief..... I fear Rod Serling will emerge from the shadows any minute now.
Actually, I put up with it for another 2 years. It was when my son was given a note to take home to his parents on the 1st day of 3rd grade that I decided to pack it in. The note was all about school policy regarding hate symbols brought into class. It seems my son decided to wear a t-shirt displaying the Australian flag for his 1st day of 3rd grade. The bloody principal, of all people, mistook the Union Jack in the corner for the American Confederate battle flag and took exception to it! I did explain the facts of life to the bloke in no uncertain terms and began making plans to return home.
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Wow! That's horrible. From the principal no less. I would hope that something like that wouldn't happen in the States now, but honestly, I'm sure there's a few places people would make that mistake.