Self-Forgiveness

I'm with Wil. I don't see any inherent divinity in forgiveness. This I speak on behalf of my departed father, the kindest atheist I ever knew well. I think it's just the humane in action. Some religious people, OTOH, will hold grudges until Mahapralaya.

As far as 'wanting to understand' goes, when people are in differing paradigms, it's nigh impossible to understand because of the programming of what is truth. Whether one wants to or not is largely irrelevant as to the ability to do the nigh impossible.
 
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Speaking of forgiveness. My grandnephew got into a spat with one of his friends the other day. It seems his friend broke one of his toys. The friend said that he was sorry, but my grandnephew would have no part of it. So I took him aside and reminded him of God's position on the matter.

I told him that God expects us to forgive and quoted to him: Luke 17:3-4

...If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.

Upon hearing that he turned to his friend and warned, "Ok that's 1. You get 6 more sorry's. Then I'm gonna belt you!"
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Thou art wise he who cometh from down-under. Ever hopeful I, blind eyes will see and deaf ears will hear. Tis truly my folly.:oops:
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Fret not, for in God's name I forgive thee.
Namaste Jesus said:
Upon hearing that he turned to his friend and warned, "Ok that's 1. You get 6 more sorry's. Then I'm gonna belt you!"
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That's pretty much how it's handled down here.:D
 
Namaste Jesus said:
If God is removed from the equation, forgiveness becomes merely for the glorification of man and therefore quite pointless.
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I would tend to agree with NJ here. Yeah, I know, you're all shocked. Any road, I think it is correct to say that, [IF] God is removed from the equation, forgiveness becomes pointless. Now where my opinion differs, I don't think it is possible to remove God from the equation and I'll tell you why.

Right from the get go humans and even some non-humans process certain qualities and traits. Babies for instance show a basic capacity for love, happiness, sadness, sorrow and even remorse. All the things necessarily to forgive. Evidently, whatever caused us to be has instilled that in us. Therefore, regardless of how you believe, what you believe or even if you profess to believe, like it or not, there is a force beyond ourselves at play. So, in that sense, God can never be fully removed from the equation. Just my 2 cents.
 
Aayankhan said:
Forgiveness is one of act in which you feel good, when you forgive others. As we expect to others that they forgive us for our bad acts, so we have to forgive others first.
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Yeah self forgiveness is good act, if we truly love someone we forgive them without mentioning them. If we expect others that they forgive us for our mistakes we have to maintain a good personality and nature with everyone. Good & strong bonding and relation with people, increase our social wealth, if there is something between us, which doesn't allow us to maintain a good relation with some peoples, in that case we have to behave normally with them and try not to harm those people, also we have to forgive those people first, and explain our heart to calm down and respect those people if we didn't give them good relation & respect, at-least we must try that we didn't react bad with them. If our nature and behavior is truly good, people also try to forgive us for our mistakes.
 
Aussie Thoughts said:
Evidently, whatever caused us to be has instilled that in us. Therefore, regardless of how you believe, what you believe or even if you profess to believe, like it or not, there is a force beyond ourselves at play. So, in that sense, God can never be fully removed from the equation.
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Welllllllll, except for the fact that it is equally possible that what has been instilled in us is purely through our biology and evolution. One cannot make a definitive statement about a God through your reasoning. One can say it is one of the possible explanations. Not the only possible explanation if one is going to be fair though.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Welllllllll, except for the fact that it is equally possible that what has been instilled in us is purely through our biology and evolution.
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I don't disagree with you here. All I'm saying is, a force beyond ourselves got the ball rolling. Be that God, evolution, science, biology or what have you, it caused us to be or to develop into what we are today. Therefore, it can never be fully removed from the equation.
 
Aussie Thoughts said:
I don't disagree with you here. All I'm saying is, a force beyond ourselves got the ball rolling. Be that God, evolution, science, biology or what have you, it caused us to be or to develop into what we are today. Therefore, it can never be fully removed from the equation.
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If in your previous response folks can replace the word god with the other potential synonyms you've provided it makes it a different statement to many.
 
wil said:
If in your previous response folks can replace the word God with the other potential synonyms you've provided it makes it a different statement to many.
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If you read my original post I said as much.
Aussie Thoughts said:
Therefore, regardless of how you believe, what you believe or even if you profess to believe, like it or not, there is a force beyond ourselves at play.
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A force beyond ourselves. I did not say God.
Aussie Thoughts said:
So, in that sense, God can never be fully removed from the equation.
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Again, I did not say God exclusively. I said in that sense. Meaning in the sense of a force beyond ourselves.
 
Thanks for the clarification. Your post #37 seemed to suggest otherwise.

I am still confused by NJ's original statement about forgiveness:
If God is removed from the equation, forgiveness becomes merely for the glorification of man and therefore quite pointless.

I don't understand this sentence. What does forgiveness have to do with glorification? for example. Also, if an atheist forgives a friend, it is automatically a pointless gesture, since they do not believe in gods? I'm missing something.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
I don't understand this sentence. What does forgiveness have to do with glorification?
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What I mean by glorification here, is that which is done for the benefit of man alone. In other words, that which is done without seeking God's blessing. Now from Aussie's perspective, nothing can truly be done without God or what ever term you happen to give to the driving force behind our existence. I will concede that this may very well be true, but from strictly a religious standpoint, I'm not sure that would carry the same weight as having God's blessing. Maybe, maybe not. It wouldn't for me, but that's up to each individual to decide.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
What about my atheist example though. If a person doesn't believe in God(s), by your definition an atheist is incapable of forgiveness. That doesn't track for me. Can you explain?
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No, everyone is capable of forgiveness. Even atheists. Regardless of our beliefs our origins are all the same. It's just that, I'm not sure forgiveness on it's own is enough to get the job done.
 
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Namaste Jesus said:
It's just that, I'm not sure forgiveness on it's own is enough to get the job done.
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Ok mate. This's probably going to screw with a few heads, but using DA's example, let me ask you a question. As DA suggests we have a couple non-believers. Average blokes really with no desire to detract from anyone else's beliefs. I think it's important to make that distinction. They themselves don't believe, but they're not trying to convince others not to believe.

Now, one day these fellows are driving along, one behind the other. The fellow following gets distracted for a moment and taps the car in front of him. The driver of that car becomes furious and even though there's no real damage, he begins berating the bloke who hit him. That fellow, realizing he was at fault, hangs his head and apologizes. Upon seeing this, the other bloke forgives him and apologizes himself for becoming irate over nothing. He in turn is forgiven and they both agree to forget the whole thing.

Would you not agree that though these fellows both profess to be non-believers, their actions in this scenario, by our definition at least, were quite Godly? Therefore, have they not achieved inner peace and harmony through their actions? That being said, would this not count in their favor in God's eyes despite their non-belief?

Put another way. From our religious perspective being non-believers is a mark against them, but also from our religious perspective righteous acts such as the one illustrated here is a mark in their favor. Correct?
 
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I think that may be the issue...in reading the bible... Godly included smiting quite a few folks...dropping plagues and droughts, floods and pestilence on those you don't forgive...

Forgiveness is a choice.,..
 
Aussie Thoughts said:
Would you not agree that though these fellows both profess to be non-believers, their actions in this scenario, by our definition at least, were quite Godly? Therefore, have they not achieved inner peace and harmony through their actions? That being said, would this not count in their favor in God's eyes despite their non-belief? Put another way. From our religious perspective being non-believers is a mark against them, but also from our religious perspective righteous acts such as the one illustrated here is a mark in their favor. Correct?
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Since our religious belief are more or less the same, I'm going to go ahead and use the 'G' word in my response. The rest of you please feel free to replace it with whatever it is you think caused our existence. You make your point quite well my friend. I cannot dispute a single thing you've said here. I too think, whether we believe or not, God's blessing is always there. It's just that some do not accept it and that goes for believers and non-believers alike.
Aussie Thoughts said:
Average blokes really with no desire to detract from anyone else's beliefs. I think it's important to make that distinction. They themselves don't believe, but they're not trying to convince others not to believe.
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I think I may have been taken literally when I referred to God as being eliminated from the equation. As you point out, that's not really possible, but in your illustration you've also made a distinction between atheists who seek to undermine the beliefs of others and those who do not. This is key, because those who seek to undermine the beliefs of others are in effect denying God's blessings. That's what I meant by eliminating God from the equation and again that goes for believers and non-believers alike.
Aussie Thoughts said:
Now, one day these fellows are driving along, one behind the other. The fellow following gets distracted for a moment and taps the car in front of him. The driver of that car becomes furious and even though there's no real damage, he begins berating the bloke who hit him. That fellow, realizing he was at fault, hangs his head and apologizes. Upon seeing this, the other bloke forgives him and apologizes himself for becoming irate over nothing. He in turn is forgiven and they both agree to forget the whole thing.
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Presumable the 2 people in your illustration had no idea the other was also an atheist. Faith or lack thereof did not enter the picture. In this case the desire to forgive came strictly from the heart. That which is endowed in us by God from the beginning. This is also what allowed them to accept the other's forgiveness. Had either of them ignored what was in their heart and spoke from anger and intolerance alone, things may have been very different. That's what I mean by not accepting God's blessing. Once again, I think that holds true for believers and non-believers alike.
 
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