UK pensioner Karl Andree faces 360 lashes over Saudi wine

Nick the Pilot

Nick the Pilot

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UK pensioner Karl Andree faces 360 lashes over Saudi wine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34513096

BBC News

"Karl Andree, 74, has already spent more than a year in prison since being arrested by Saudi religious police.

"His daughter Kirsten Piroth told the BBC her father - who has suffered from three types of cancer - "would not survive" the punishment lashes."

(cont.)
 
yet another saudi law that is UnIslamic. I can only assume he is not Muslim, by the article's lack of background being given. So he should not be bound by our Shariah. Even If he is Muslim, the penalty is not supposed to be that great. And I know of at least 1 Sahih Hadith that says that the Prophet (PBUH) regularly pardoned the convert/reverts who had drank alcohol prior to their coming into Islam.
 
The old man had lived in Saudi Arabia for +/-25 years. He willfully chose the homemade hooch. It matters not if this law is Islamic, it happens to be the law. He was aware of the consequences. Certainly an extreme law but it was his choice. Wrong choice...
 
wil said:
Man breaks law...

News at 11
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EdgyDolmen said:
The old man had lived in Saudi Arabia for +/-25 years. He willfully chose the homemade hooch. It matters not if this law is Islamic, it happens to be the law. He was aware of the consequences. Certainly an extreme law but it was his choice. Wrong choice...
Click to expand...
Oh I agree... Being on an Islamic Forum of Interfaith, I figured it needed an Islamic Perspective of such. I agree that he knew the law and chose to go against it (probably not first time), and in that itself is enough to deserve the punishment he has agreed to by living there. The same as I believe if someone here in the US tries to (officially) marry more than 1 woman, they are entitled to polygamy laws which includes anulment and jail time.
 
Most expats there drink hooch in their compounds and a blind eye is turned. To receive such a harsh punishment my guess would be he was transporting a large quantity and was probably the brewer. I'm afraid I have no sympathy, his family talks about his wife having cancer but having lived in Saudi for 25 years he could well afford to return to UK where his wife lives and care for her during her illness. He knew the law, he knew they have very harsh punishments and he chose to be very stupid.

I can't comment on what sharia says because it isn't as simple as 'sharia doesn't say non Muslims can't drink alcohol either'. There are sharia punishments for anyone living in a Muslim land who cause corruption in the land. So without seeing the actual charges and judgement and what the sharia basis was for this punishment its not possible to say whether it's Islamic or not.
 
The impending flogging of Karl Andree may have caused the UK to drop a multi-million-pound contract with the Saudis.

David Cameron Cancels Saudi Prison Deal And Raises Case Of Briton Facing Flogging

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/13/david-cameron-cancels-sau_n_8284748.html

"Britain’s relations with Saudi Arabia faced a double challenge today after David Cameron pulled out of a controversial prison deal and complained at the treatment of a Briton sentenced to flogging.

"In what looked like Jeremy Corbyn’s first big political victory, Downing Street announced that the Ministry of Justice had decided not to go ahead with a controversial £5.9m plan to train the Saudis run their jails.

"The Prime Minister’s official spokeswoman also revealed that he was today writing to the Saudi authorities to express his worries about the case of pensioner Karl Andree, a Briton facing 360 lashes for possessing home brewed wine."

(cont.)
 
If it was cancelled for that reason it's only to appease the British people. If they were serious about punishing the Saudi's they would cancel one of the billion pound arms deals
 
Punishment may be harsh extremly but it is a deterrent
The problem is that there are corrupt in the Saudi royal family and some of them drank alcohol, but does not have subject to punishment and this is a big mistake in the application of sanctions in Islam which punishing the big before small and the president before people
 
Welcome, namaste n asalam alekum ayman.

I appreciate your insight...

We would love the big before small, president before people here in the US... Hold the standard high sounds good to me.

Is that sharia, quarnic, or hadith?
 
I think the lashes will be too harsh for an elderly ill person like him
 
wa alaykom al salam
excuse me I dont very well in english
but generally islam Islam does not distinguish between the weak and strong in the penalty they are all equaly
That elderly person had must respected his age and not commit such a mistake
But I do not know if there is in hadeeth punishment over 80 or 100 lashes as a maximum
the equality in punishment for all peoples not found in many arabic counries as america also hadith said
وعنها رضي الله عنها أن قريشا أهمهم شأن المرأة المخزومية التي سرقت فقالوا : من يكلم فيها رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم ؟ فقالوا : من يجترئ عليه إلا أسامة بن زيد حب رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم . فكلمه أسامة فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : [ أتشفع في حد من حدود الله تعالى ؟ ] ثم قام فاختطب ثم قال : [ إنما أهلك من قبلكم أنهم كانوا إذا سرق فيهم الشريف تركوه وإذا سرق فيهم الضعيف أقاموا عليه الحد وأيم الله لو أن فاطمة بنت محمد سرقت لقطعت يدها ] متفق عليه.
651. `Aishah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Quraish were much worried about the case of a Makhzumiyah woman who had committed theft and wondered who should intercede for her with Messenger of Allah (PBUH) (so that she would not get punished for her crime). Some said Usamah bin Zaid (May Allah be pleased with him) was his beloved and so he may dare do so. So Usamah(May Allah be pleased with him) spoke to him about that matter and the Prophet (PBUH) said to him, "Do you intercede when one of the legal punishments ordained by Allah has been voilated?'' Then he got up and addressed the people saying, "The people before you were ruined because when a noble person amongst them committed theft, they would leave him, but if a weak person amongst them committed theft, they would execute the legal punishment on him. By Allah, were Fatimah, the daughter of Muhammad, to commit the theft, I would have cut off her hand.''
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].
Commentary: The example of Allah's Messenger (PBUH) clearly tells us that no intercession is allowed for a person who transgresses the limits set by Allah. And if anybody has the audacity to do so, the deciding authority is presumed to be impervious to his solicitation. Nor should the criminal's social status or family influence, if any, obstruct the administration of justice. The law and retribution rise above all discrimination and social hierarchy. Any contravention in this regard is enough to incur Divine wrath.
 
ayman almadi said:
Nor should the criminal's social status or family influence, if any, obstruct the administration of justice. The law and retribution rise above all discrimination and social hierarchy. Any contravention in this regard is enough to incur Divine wrath.
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Fine in theory. Not so much in reality. The wealthy in most countries routinely break the tenants of their society and are not punished.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Fine in theory. Not so much in reality. The wealthy in most countries routinely break the tenants of their society and are not punished.
Click to expand...
yeah Saudi usually lets the people from rich countries off from corporal punishments as it don't want to spoil the business deals with those countries
 
True. I was referring to the wealthy class within Islamic countries though. They try to keep such things under wraps for obvious reasons but sometimes a story gets out. There was one a few years ago about a wedding party of a wealthy Arab family (don't remember the nationality) in which people at the party drank, and mostly carried on as if they were Westerners. The common folk were scandalized, and that is about all that came of it.
 
Iran, Lebanon were popular destinations in the 50..60s...beaches, nightclubs, westerners, and Muslims partying together...before the the stricter factions began to take hold... Hmmmm contemplating us, tea party...
 
Oh let's be honest here, the wealthy class in virtually all countries get away with things we wouldn't, good heavens OJ Simpson was found not guilty lol. Saudi is no different, it's one law for us and one for them. Doesn't make it right, just how humans tend to act everywhere.

As for lashings yes of course it's a very harsh punishment for an elderly man but it was his choice to break the law and knew full well the punishment would be harsh. If I smuggle drugs in Thailand I will be shot, so why complain about human rights if I choose to break that law and get caught? Look at the case of Raif Badawi, I am sure we all agree that people should be free to say what they want, no matter how demented (and when you read the court documents of what he actually said online I would suggest he belonged in a drug rehab centre or mental hospital not a jail) but the fact is there are things you simply don't say in Saudi Arabia, so why say them? Look at what women are currently achieving, there is a huge feminist movement currently going on there but the women are being smart and staying within accepted norms to bring about change, it slows the process down but is much more likely to succeed ... same with freedom of speech or any subject, raging on the internet is just asking for trouble, so why complain when trouble comes your way?
 
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