Religious Detractors Within

[Ahanu]

Do tell. References please on where science can prove gods exist. Inquiring minds and all that!

See David Hart's article called "God, Gods, and Fairies" here to see his discussion about the distinction between God and gods, and why science can reveal the existence or nonexistence of gods. Here's a relevant quote:

Admittedly, I suppose, it is possible to mistake the word 'God' for the name of some discrete object that might or might not be found within the fold of nature, if one just happens to be more or less ignorant of the entire history of theistic belief. But, really, the distinction between 'God'—meaning the one God who is the transcendent source of all things—and any particular 'god'—meaning one or another of a plurality of divine beings who inhabit the cosmos—is one that, in Western tradition, goes back at least as far as Xenophanes.

And another:

Fairies and gods, if they exist, occupy something of the same conceptual space as organic cells, photons, and the force of gravity, and so the sciences might perhaps have something to say about them, if a proper medium for investigating them could be found.

​

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Robber attacks you in the street...you die... Allah's will?

Isis blows up a mosque, Allah's will?

Taliban slices a journalists head, Allah's will?

A school bus of children hit by a drunk driver?

Allah's will?

So should the drunk, or the robber, or the taliban or Isis be punished for assisting ALLAH?

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes (because they aren't assisting Allah)...

you mistake his will as what he prefers. He already knows what will happen, and who is good and bad. Those whose spirits are weak against perversion, etc. His will, or his plan is that someone will be tested, or someone will be lead by these things in a grand scheme that will help more people somehow... It is not my place to analyze what good came out of every scenario, I just know it is all his plan.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Interesting. So are you saying that unlike the Christian belief that mortals have the ability to choose which actions they will take, according the the Islamic tradition everything is fated to happen and free will does not exist?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

So are you saying that unlike the Christian belief that mortals have the ability to choose which actions they will take, according the the Islamic tradition everything is fated to happen and free will does not exist?

It's a bit more complex than that, you have free will. Allah just knows which you will choose. Essentially this life is to prove his judgement to your soul. Some would say you need 2 witnesses, Allah can only account for 1, your soul must be the number 2... Of course this is theory, nothing to back it up other than some hypotheticals.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Interesting, but a bit off topic for this thread. Perhaps another should be started to discuss it.

 

[Ahanu]

Thoughts? Possible solutions?

No solutions. Just thoughts. It makes me think of something I recently read.

According to Coleman Barks' translation of Rumi, Rumi said:

"Look inside and find where a person
loves from. That's the reality,
not what they say.
Hypocrites
give attention to form, the right
and wrong ways of professing belief.
Grow instead in universal light.

When that revealed itself, God gave it
a thousand different names, the least
of those sweet-breathing names being,
the one who is not in need of anyone. "
​

Rumi's advice is to go beyond form.

 

[Craz]

No solutions. Just thoughts. It makes me think of something I recently read.

According to Coleman Barks' translation of Rumi, Rumi said:

"Look inside and find where a person
loves from. That's the reality,
not what they say.
Hypocrites
give attention to form, the right
and wrong ways of professing belief.
Grow instead in universal light.

When that revealed itself, God gave it
a thousand different names, the least
of those sweet-breathing names being,
the one who is not in need of anyone. "
​

Rumi's advice is to go beyond form.

Wonderful poem. Here's one from Kabir

O servant, where do you seek Me?

Lo! I am beside you.

I am neither in temple nor in mosque:
I am neither in Kaaba nor in Kailash:

Neither am I in rites and ceremonies,
nor in Yoga and renunciation.

If you are a true seeker, you shall at once see Me:
you shall meet Me in a moment of time.

Kabir says, ' O Sadhu! God is the breath of all breath.'

Kabir

 

[Lux]

RE: OP

I don't mind being told I was wrong. As long as accompanied with a reasonable argument for why they think I'm wrong.

I believe firmly that many of the fundamentalists arguments are wrong, like the ones coming from Ken Ham. I'd say so whenever I happen to talk to the supporters of his ideas on fora. Or the Catholics who insist on papal infallibility. (Thomas, don't hesitate to say so if you think I'm wrong. I'm willing to learn.)

Does this make me a detractor? (I mean this not as a rhetorical question; I'm really asking.) If my attitude toward discussion should be viewed as "detraction", I'll have to find other fora.

I prefer discussions with those whom I don't have to mince my words. I find candid exchanges invigorating. I usually learn something from them, even when, after a long discussion, both of us continue to think "Well, he is dead wrong."

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Or the Catholics who insist on papal infallibility. (Thomas, don't hesitate to say so if you think I'm wrong. I'm willing to learn.)

I should leave this to Thomas but he doesn't always read everything, but I think he would say that papal infallibility only apply to specific (and somewhat rare) decrees about the Catholic faith. And it's only relevant when there is a disagreement about interpretations of scripture. So it's not the pope always being right whatever he says.