What is the meaning of this Life and Death

I have the evidence if one is ready to believe. But the problem is people in this age of freedom cannot accept anything that is beyond their understanding or
comprehension.

Jesus and others after him and even before him had to perform miracles to
make people believe in their messages.

In todays age people would have called him a magician or illusionist.

The evidence I have is coincidental and my life experience. But every one
have their own. don't they. Thats what makes humans different from chimps.

Much of my evidence is also based on logic like darwins evolutionary theories.

Yet, I doubt people will accept them untill they experience it themselves.

I do not want to convert people but only convey to them the message of
the SELF and the good Lord.

Guru
 
Blue said:
What you personally and affectively believe, Green Lantern is fine, but I cannot let this go:

"Death is a transitional phase in experiencing the physical to spiritual life."

Affirming this to yourself according to your personal validations is not 'evidence' to anyone, but yourself, as I think from your other recent post you appreciate. You cannot generalise it to others legitimately without external evidence beyond yourself.

A personal affirmation does not indicate 'truth' to anyone but yourself.

You see, I have never read, seen or heard any objective evidence of the truth of this statement.
If death of our organism is just a transition into anything other than rotting tissue, bone, etc., please present the evidence.

Just affirming a 'spiritual' plane beyond death is not enough, except to yourself.
You appear to be affirming this to others on the basis of no evidence whatsoever... or are you going to claim spiritualist mediums are evidence, or ghosts... or something similarly 'super'natural?
Click to expand...
In my opinion, not being able to prove something doesn't mean it's impossible. It just means it's unproven. There are things that we can never prove...That just means we can't validate their existance, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

There's no need to criticize someone's personal beliefs on the grounds that they are not 'logical' or 'cannot be proven'...We're human beings, not machines and we certainly don't have to justify every single behavior we produce and ground them in logical scientific deduction.

I respect your point of view, but it seems you disregard everything that doesn't fit your explanation of the world, which to some is only part of the picture. You may disagree, but I don't think it's right to belittle others' beliefs, particularly using a system that in itself is flawed and human.

We are simply expressing beliefs, which don't have to have logical foundations, so it seems to me that you're just stating the obvious, which is that there is no evidence that they exist beyond ourselves.

To many, that evidence is not necessary in the way you demand it.

Just my two cents worth..
 
Hi MitF,

Here again we have the same obvious misunderstanding of Rationality and Logic... and the Pragmatic.

Yet again the accusation is made that judgements based in reason are somehow therefore 'robotic'/machine-like and uncaring... NO one is saying that Humanism doesn't play a part... psychological, anthropological, sociological, cultural aspects do not play their part.

I - for one - would not disagree with this:
"In my opinion, not being able to prove something doesn't mean it's impossible. It just means it's unproven. There are things that we can never prove...That just means we can't validate their existance, that doesn't mean they don't exist."

That is part of scientific methodology!
It is never simply assumed that x , y , - or z are impossible!
Logically... if someone hypothesises a 'spiritual' domain beyond death... the answer is that logically we do not know! That is why it is important to examine the hypothesis and constantly reassess it. It is a claim that goes beyond 'self' and self validation. It must therefore be rationally and objectively investigated.

Are you under the misapprehensionj that I would deny what you wrote in the above quotation from your last post?

You then say:

"There's no need to criticize someone's personal beliefs on the grounds that they are not 'logical' or 'cannot be proven'...We're human beings, not machines and we certainly don't have to justify every single behavior we produce and ground them in logical scientific deduction."

Firstly, there is a need to criticise the patently demonstrable and external validations for what is irrational, affective and subjective in terms of 'religious/spiritual extensions into the material domain.
There is no external evidence.
We are discussing matters of Faith,and I have to repeat what I have already said to you... FAITH does not necessitate proof beyond yourself. If it had proof beyond yourself, it would not necessitate the use of the word 'Faith'. The word would be redundant!
Because of this, it is rationally imperative to criticise and point out the fundamental error in understanding concerning matters of Faith.

"...we certainly don't have to justify every single behavior we produce and ground them in logical scientific deduction."

Of course you don't! No one does!
BUT if you then wish to extend your personal validations into the real world as hypotheses... you MUST rationally justify them and submit them to objective considerations.

I would say that if one cannot rationally justify one's actions in driving (badly)... or in killing another human being, we are patently acting irrationally or under duress.

I have used the following example before...Many people 'fall in love' and rational considerations fly out of the window in many western cultures.
Well - such considerations came into my behaviours, and my wife's! We have been happy for over forty years now, in spite of the rows and sometimes tempestuous emotionalism.

Evidence shows in the West today that 'falling in love' is the nonsense that Shakespeare understood all too well! If you do not bring 'reason' to bear... at the time, the dangers are there for all to see.

You can't have it both ways, as you seem to imply in many of your statements. Forgive me, if I am wrong.

You see, I think you do understand very well when you kindly reiterate the thrust of what I say:

"We are simply expressing beliefs, which don't have to have logical foundations, so it seems to me that you're just stating the obvious, which is that there is no evidence that they exist beyond ourselves."

Well said, Mirror in the Fog. I couldn't agree more, except I base what I say in reason and do not cite 'personal' affective beliefs about spiritual concerns as a basis for statements about the material and objective domain beyond self.

I do not criticise people,
I only criticise what they say, when they extend their Faith(s) into the material domain as 'truths' ... (All too often as 'ultimate' truths!)
as rationally and coolly as I can, with respect for their Faith(s) and for them as fellow human beings.

Peace.
 
Blue,

Belief in supernatural forces in the material world do not have to be proven. It is a belief. Not a scientific proposal. We're here to discuss opinions and matters of beliefs, whatever they might be, logical or illogical, what's silly to me may be quite a solemn subject for another. We're not here to write doctoral thesis justifying them or arguing the rational arguements and external evidence of why we believe what we believe.

Unless one feels forced to accept someone's version of the truth (or is trying to grade term papers) nobody has a right to demand such a thing from another person who is simply expressing subjective ideas and doesn't assume that their version is the only version of what is possible.
 
"We are simply expressing beliefs, which don't have to have logical foundations, so it seems to me that you're just stating the obvious, which is that there is no evidence that they exist beyond ourselves (I agree with that last nine words.)"

I am sorry if you cannot appreciate the connection between the domain of the Material and that of the Affective, MirrorInTheFog, or that people say these things as if they are materially true because they have personally validated what they say.

Again you seem to think I would disagree with statements of belief and their nature , on which in any case you have said you agree.

But look what you written above...." which don't have to have logical foundations"... implying, in my personal opinion, that you are doing no more than expounding your personal opinions - as you say. That would be fine, I agree, if that was all that you have done. I have selectively taken comments of yours that say or imply other.

Where I have taken issue with your comments, I have done so to demonstrate that reason and logic should have been applied if you suggest what you say has some kind of application beyond your opinions... ie., is a 'truth' of the world, in reality.

Look at a quick example, not by yourself, but the one that has given rise to these last few posts:

"Death is a transitional phase in experiencing the physical to spiritual life."

Now, forgive me, but that statement turns on the word "is'.
If someone believes this, they are irrational and wrong... in fact, in the state of current knowledge. There is no evidence that death is a 'transition' to a 'spiritual life'. They have a right to that as a personal opinion, but should not have said "is".

People who make such statements should, in all honesty, and with respect, at least understand what they have claimed... beyond their personal spiritual understandings... and not use the verb 'is'.

If people simply wish to compare spiritual beliefs... that's fine too. (So I agree with you again...) They should just not speak of them as if they have any reality at all beyond their personal validations. If they do that, they should then expect people to come along and criticise what they have said.

===
The meaning of life is that there isn't one that can be validated and tested beyond oneself. There is only the biological fact,made according to what 'life 'exhibits as opposed to what 'death'of an organism exhibits.
Death is the cessation of life, and as there is no external evidence for spirit, and it does not necessitate proof or disproof, there is no eviodwence for anything like 'spiritual life'. That is pure opinion and cannot be said to be so in fact.

If exteranl evidence wasfound and verified and was repeatable by others with the same result, it wouldbe a different matter.

Re: Scientific examination of claims re: ghosts, the supernatural.. Are always going to be investigated by those interested enough, from a scientific standpoint. That is also fact.
 
To each his own...I believe we've veered off the subject at hand. Again I've said what I wanted to say and I don't need to prove anything as I'm not trying to impose my ideas on others.
 
Here is my Theory which I want to test...Philosophically not scientifically.

"Every soul starts from the basic of all life forms and progresses towards the Supreme SELF - GOD" - an extension of Darwins Evolution Theory.

The Human Form is part of this evolution chain which we are now experiencing and the soul has a SELF which is conscious of its existence and express it.

I am not sure if this chain includes lifeforms only from Earth or from all over the Material Universe.

Will write more later....Meanwhile try to explore this theory.

Guru
 
I did provide some links for the 'scientific proof of life after death'. I thought it was on this thread.

being love

Sacredstar
 
I've said what I wanted to say and I don't need to prove anything as I'm not trying to impose my ideas on others.

That is your right, Mirror in the Fog, but I still have to be awkward and suggest that if you do not ask certain questions of your spiritual beliefs. you are being dishonest to yourself... you appear to be saying, I believe - blindly...
If not you would be brave enough to answer my points.

Whereas external facts havea very large impact upon personal spiritual beliefs, the converse is that personal spiriyual beliefs cannot in all honesty be projected into comments on this thread like the one I quoted from someone else.

Why not discuss that, as it is pertinent to the Thread?

IS it possible to claim there actually IS a transition from Death into some other spiritual existence? If so, as this is then an external concern, why ignore or as you do, deny, the scientiifc investigations of 'spirit' in the real domain?
==================
SacredStar,

I have searched the Thread, perhaps a bit too quickly, and couldn't find the references/LINKS to which you refer.
Would you be kind enough to post them again?
 
I've answered you several times. You're misinterpreting my answers, and I choose not to answer you further because you are doing so consistently and it's become offensive.

I'm trying to keep the dicussion civil.

As I see no reason to justify my beliefs to you.

I was making the point that certain beliefs are simply beliefs and nobody is suggesting otherwise. It is not your place to demand such proof from me. I refuse to continue the arguement on those grounds. If you wish to call that lack of bravery, or integrity, then so be it. If you wish to say I believe what I do blindly, it is only proof that you don't know who I am and what I believe.

I will not lower myself to make such personal assaults on your character, or anyone else's.

I refuse to take up any more space on this thread answering you.
 
What can I do but profess total innocence of any personal criticisms? They were not intended, if you construe them as such, without explaining your personal grounds for the affirmations. I have already apologised to you, if that is how you see the comments, but do so again.
Statements I have made were on rational and reasoned grounds, I hope.

I agree that in view of your comments, the matter should rest, and we beg to differ... on many points.:cool:
 
Hello

On this forum, I have been all along writing about the SELF and GOD as the sum of all the SELF within us.

The following article I posted is not my viewpoint. It is the viewpoint of a person who has probably received the same message as I have. Yet, like I used to believe earlier the messages are from Aliens, this person also is feeling the same.

http://216.132.172.70/indiadaily/editorial/12-26-04.asp

However, this is not true as I have found out later. This is a message from GOD not ETs.

For me what is significant in this article is the following statement which is also the core foundation of my Beliefs.


"Beyond 2012, out technologies will take a different direction. People will learn the essence of spirituality, the relation between body and the soul, the reincarnation and the fact we are connected with each other are all part of “God”."

What this means is the seeds of this realization has been laid by me and hopefully people all over the world will reazlize by 2012 what I have started saying in December 2004.

The TrueSky Movement which I have started is to achieve this aim of realizing the SELF and how we are all part of "GOD"

The mission is started this month and will realize its aims in 2012.

However, it is up to you to believe in this or not. This article is a clue for me from the good Lord to carry on spreading his message of Love and Peace and the SELF.

Love and Peace

Guru
 
This all sounds suspiciously like advertising, OnLine Guru.

You quote:

"Beyond 2012, out technologies will take a different direction. People will learn the essence of spirituality, the relation between body and the soul, the reincarnation and the fact we are connected with each other are all part of “God”."

Is this person a prophet? How does he KNOW 2012 is a key date, and from where does he derive his information?

How does TrueSky, (as you say, a 'Mission',) differ from countless 'missions' over the last two thousand years? What makes it unique, if it is unique?

You don't actually seem to offer any convincing statements to support the claims, beyond your own, I am sure, honest and passionate affirmations.

Why should what you say be believed in by others?:confused:
 
Dear Friend,

My Belief is centered on inferences and experiences of Life Events. I believe GOD gives us clues to strengthen our beliefs.

All these days, starting 1st of December I have been stating my viewpoint about the SELF and GOD. These I believe are messages from the good Lord.

Most of these messages are in the form of Clues in events or inferences from information that I read.

The link I provided was one such information that contained a clue on where my mission is headed. This information was published in a website and I happened to read it. Others who read the article would have read it differently.

But the following paragraph holds different meaning for me. It is a clue for me from the good Lord.

"Beyond 2012, out technologies will take a different direction. People will learn the essence of spirituality, the relation between body and the soul, the reincarnation and the fact we are connected with each other are all part of “God”."

I have received numerous such clues from the good Lord and is more than a coincidence from my experience. These clues reaffirm my belief and is considered by me as evidence of the existence of the SELF and GOD.

Now, I cannot share all the clues and messages with just about anyone. Especially non believers. Whenever I tried sharing these messages, it proved harmful for me and my family. Therefore, I decided to start the TrueSky Movement to contact people who believe in my Thoughts and hence I can share with them the messages which I otherwise I cannot share with others.

TrueSky Movement is not a organization or a cult. It is only a channel to share the messages of the good Lord among believers.

Now the article or the person who wrote this article is not of particular interest to me or connected to my beliefs except for the message contained in it in the paragraph I have outlined.

Now the date 2012 is significant. 12 is the sum of 5+7. The number seven is an important number for me. It is repeated in most of the messages I have recieved. Like there are supposed to be seven human lifetime levels.

Therefore for me the message in 2012 reads as follows:

"Each year starting from 2005 until 2012 (that is seven years) is like passing through seven human lifetime levels"

Another Clue or Message is the earthquake and Flooding just after Christmas. I believe flooding is an important part of all religious books. And has some meaning. As this current event occured close to my home, India I believe this is another message from the good Lord.

Imagine if the earthquake had happened in West Asia and not East Asia. I would not be living today to write this reply as I live in the coastline of India.

But not on the eastern. The Western coastline.

That I have to be steadfast in my beliefs and something important is going to happen in the future in which I will have to play my part and contribution.

So what more evidence do you want?

Guru


Blue said:
This all sounds suspiciously like advertising, OnLine Guru.

You quote:

"Beyond 2012, out technologies will take a different direction. People will learn the essence of spirituality, the relation between body and the soul, the reincarnation and the fact we are connected with each other are all part of “God”."

Is this person a prophet? How does he KNOW 2012 is a key date, and from where does he derive his information?

How does TrueSky, (as you say, a 'Mission',) differ from countless 'missions' over the last two thousand years? What makes it unique, if it is unique?

You don't actually seem to offer any convincing statements to support the claims, beyond your own, I am sure, honest and passionate affirmations.

Why should what you say be believed in by others?:confused:
Click to expand...
 
With due respect, OnLineGuru, you are making claims beyond your personal - and I agree honestly affirmed - beliefs to matters in the real world, where objectivity and rationalism play a part.

Let us all consider your claims.

You base a great deal upon some supposed relevance of '7' as being somehow a mystical number, indicative of 'something' that makes sense to your personal affective thinking.
That's fine, but you go further.
You claim this preordains certain events in the material domain beyond yourself... on no material evidence whatsoever beyond yourself.
That is not justifiable beyond yourself, my friend.
There is no evidence in the material domain. A level 9 tectonic plate event was in fact overdue, the previous one of such devasting consequences being in 1900, I believe... with other smaller ones since then in various parts of the world along the known fault lines.

As you say, you can offer these perhaps well-intentioned observations, but in the end it is all a matter of our personal beliefs - AND I agree with you on that.

--- BUT look how you have then ascribed the movements of tectonic plates, geologically speaking to some Divine, (or supernatural 'intelligence'?) 'actions'. You have no evidence for that beyond your feelings about the matter... a subjective value judgement you make. As you admit, if it is just yourself that conceives of that, that is all that can be said, so why extend your 'faith' beliefs beyond self into the material domain?

I too can make predictions upon known evidence. I predict that such an event as the recent one, will not be the last.
I do not know when the next will be, of this magnitude on the Richter scale, but the likelihood/probability is very high in the longterm and could occur this year, next year or in a hundred years or more from now.
The fact is we do not know, (Earthquake prediction still being highly dependent upon very expensive processes still in their infancy, and virtually impossible in universal terms owing to costs) and to claim that one can 'know' just on a personal feeling that some 'disaster' or 'change for the better'(which is a delightfully vague notion) is going to happen in a specific year has no foundation beyond yourself.
(-Which, I repeat, I am pleased to observe you seem to support as just your personal affirmations:
I have received numerous such clues from the good Lord and is more than a coincidence from my experience. These clues reaffirm my belief and is considered by me as evidence of the existence of the SELF and GOD.
Equally, I hope I have presented a rational demonstration of an alternative view that can be based not in my feelings and opinions, but facts.)
 
Dear Friend,

I have been in your shoes and know what rational thought is. With all the scientific and logic at my disposal, I have tried to explain rationally all the supposed events that have occured in my life.

Take for example, I tried to post this incident about the earthquake yesterday and my computer would not work.

But it did work the following day.

My daughters birthdate is the same as my brother in laws and his sons birthdate is the same as my wifes.

There are numerious such events and information I can share with you which has no logical reasoning or explaination.

This means only only thing for me. That the good Lord is not bound by the logic and rationality that governs us. So if an earthquake was due in this part of the world it need not have been exact the day after christmas.

It need not have been in the same month as I have been espousing by beliefs. It could have been last month.

Our knowledge my dear friend is not infinite and we are on the tip of the knowledge iceberg. Therefore what is irrational today can be perfectly rational tomorrow.

And even if I am wrong what is the harm in espousing the message of GOD which is nothing but to awaken our humanity and spread Love and Peace.

I am only trying to connect with others not start a religion. I follow the Hindu Religion. This does not mean I cannot connect to those who believe in Jesus and yet form my own independent beliefs.

Hope this satisfies you... and come around to accept some if not all of my views..

My dear friend there is no harm in accepting that GOD exists. But the fact is the people are moving from this supreme truth and getting involved wrong influences such as fundamentalism, paganism, aliens, etc which will be counter productive for mankind. And this is the message of the recent Earthquake.

I believe it. Do you? That is your choice.

Guru


Blue said:
With due respect, OnLineGuru, you are making claims beyond your personal - and I agree honestly affirmed - beliefs to matters in the real world, where objectivity and rationalism play a part.

Let us all consider your claims.

You base a great deal upon some supposed relevance of '7' as being somehow a mystical number, indicative of 'something' that makes sense to your personal affective thinking.
That's fine, but you go further.
You claim this preordains certain events in the material domain beyond yourself... on no material evidence whatsoever beyond yourself.
That is not justifiable beyond yourself, my friend.
There is no evidence in the material domain. A level 9 tectonic plate event was in fact overdue, the previous one of such devasting consequences being in 1900, I believe... with other smaller ones since then in various parts of the world along the known fault lines.

As you say, you can offer these perhaps well-intentioned observations, but in the end it is all a matter of our personal beliefs - AND I agree with you on that.

--- BUT look how you have then ascribed the movements of tectonic plates, geologically speaking to some Divine, (or supernatural 'intelligence'?) 'actions'. You have no evidence for that beyond your feelings about the matter... a subjective value judgement you make. As you admit, if it is just yourself that conceives of that, that is all that can be said, so why extend your 'faith' beliefs beyond self into the material domain?

I too can make predictions upon known evidence. I predict that such an event as the recent one, will not be the last.
I do not know when the next will be, of this magnitude on the Richter scale, but the likelihood/probability is very high in the longterm and could occur this year, next year or in a hundred years or more from now.
The fact is we do not know, (Earthquake prediction still being highly dependent upon very expensive processes still in their infancy, and virtually impossible in universal terms owing to costs) and to claim that one can 'know' just on a personal feeling that some 'disaster' or 'change for the better'(which is a delightfully vague notion) is going to happen in a specific year has no foundation beyond yourself.
(-Which, I repeat, I am pleased to observe you seem to support as just your personal affirmations:
I have received numerous such clues from the good Lord and is more than a coincidence from my experience. These clues reaffirm my belief and is considered by me as evidence of the existence of the SELF and GOD.
Equally, I hope I have presented a rational demonstration of an alternative view that can be based not in my feelings and opinions, but facts.)
Click to expand...
 
My friend,

I have not disavowed or criticised your personal affirmations and would not dream of doing so.

The early part of your post is fine and reasoned in that the explanations are your personal affirmations, and they satisfy yourself.

I only question what you then project into the material world.

You seem to suggest that a computer working one day, will not reboot perfectly well on another day, because of some supernatural reason.
That cannot be done.... You cannot simply put down its not working in one session to some influence beyond yourself, without producing objective evidence.

As a small part of my current part time work, I help people instal their computers and use them. A fault in use that writes some data to your hard drive one day, can be corrected by a further reboot the next day. There is nothing supernatural in this... or in the coincidence of birthdates. That is simply, as you admit, your personal opinion and interpretations. I do not criticise that. People may believe whatever they personally believe and affirm.

I am only asking that if that affirmation and belief is projected into the material domain, we all have a right to ask for material and objective evidence outside of yourself.
A few dates coinciding are just a few dates coinciding, that is all.
The interpretation of that is yours. You alone ascribe significance to it, and maybe members of your family.

I would not, that is all.;)

Peace my friend.
 
Dear Friend,

I have been in the IT field since 1991 and have worked on all computers from XTs (8088) to Mainframes. I have also been a programmer and systems analyst and maintained and worked with computers all my life.

So, I can reasonably know if a computer can have problems and when and how.

This does not mean that I am right. This might be just a coincidence.

But when one looks at such coincidences happening all the time in ones life then it defys rational reasoning.

And the only reasoning I can conclude is that it is the result of some higher power or force and which I subscribe to as GOD.

Thanks for your Support

Guru




Blue said:
My friend,

I have not disavowed or criticised your personal affirmations and would not dream of doing so.

The early part of your post is fine and reasoned in that the explanations are your personal affirmations, and they satisfy yourself.

I only quetsion what you then project into the material world.

You seem to suggest that a computer working one day, will not reboot perfectly well on another dya, becuase of some supernatural reason. That cannot be done.... You cannot simply put down its not working in one session to some influence beyond yourself, without producing objective evidence.

As a small part of my current part time work, I help people instal their computers and use them. A fault in use that writes some data to your hard drive one day, can be corrected by a reboot the next day. There is nothing supernatural in this... or in the coincidence of birthdates. That is simply, as you admit, your personal opinion and interpretations. I do not criticise that. People may believe whatever they personally believe and affirm.

I am only asking that if that affirmation and belief is projected into the material domain, we all have a right to ask for material and objective evidence outside of yourself.
A few dates coinciding are just a few dates coinciding, that is all.
The interpretation of that is yours. You alone ascribe significance to it, and maybe members of your family.

I would not, that is all.

Peace my friend.
Click to expand...
 
But when one looks at such coincidences happening all the time in ones life then it defys rational reasoning.

And the only reasoning I can conclude is that it is the result of some higher power or force and which I subscribe to as GOD.

Defies rationality? Why? How? It is rational to take account of coincidence in any investigation; we just shouldn't ascribe supernatural 'forces' at work!
:)

A personal affirmation is fine, OnLineGuru.
You ascibe it a 'God', I don't.
This just means our value judgements differ, my friend, which is also fine.
I have no desire to dissuade you from personal and affective affirmations and ascriptions of Divinity, higher powers or forces (though why they should be considered 'higher' I do not know, when they have no external evidence).

Peace.
 
"It is rational to expect coincidences on Investigation"

When the coincidences are one to many...these cannot be explained rationaly.

I am only concerned about the well being of everyone on this planet especially those who are not ready to realize their SELF.

Guru
 
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