Intellectually Defunct

The early Christian community was torn by a major battle between the gnostics (mystics) and the orthodox.
I'm sorry but I think this is a polemical generalisation and quite inaccurate, to imply the gnostics were mystics and the orthodox were not is just not the case.

The gnostics felt the organized church was a conspiracy to alienate people for a direct, immediate revelatory experience of God, by insisting on the priests as necessary intercessors between the believer and God.
But it's clear in gnostic systems that in their view the vast majority of people (hylics) were incapable of knowing God, and that of those who were, the most part were 'psychics' who could only realize their potential under the tutelage of a pneumatic, named the master of that particular school of gnosticism.

And surely the gnostic systems with their demiurge and so on place a number of impedimentary 'levels' between man and the divine, which man can only cross if he has the required 'keys of knowledge'. These systems are founded on an anthropomorphic vision of the divine orders, founded on human psychologisms.

In Christian Scripture and the commentaries of the community that it was believed that God is immanently present to the soul. This is what the Liturgy is, for one thing. And Scripture makes it clear: "For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba"(Romans 8:15), "And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father" (Galatians 4:6).

And Augustine's teaching to the Catechumen withe regard to the Eucharist "Be what you see; receive what you are" (Sermon 272)

Also, Marguerite Porete was burned at the stake ...
Hey, we've jumped a few centuries here. Different time, different discussion ...

Meister Eckhart was twice tried and declared a heretic.
Eckhart's status has been uncertain. The Dominican Order pressed for his full rehabilitation and confirmation of his theological orthodoxy. Pope John Paul II was favorable of this initiative, and would quote from Eckhart's writings.

In 2010 Timothy Radcliffe, then Master of the Dominicans, summarized the position as follows:
"We tried to have the censure lifted on Eckhart ... and were told that there was really no need since he had never been condemned by name, just some propositions which he was supposed to have held, and so we are perfectly free to say that he is a good and orthodox theologian."
This is a point often overlooked. The same rule applied to Origen – neither man was condemned, rather elements of their teaching were declared erroneous if, and it was a big if, if the interpretation of the teaching by his accusers is accurate. In the case of both Origen and Eckhart, it's generally agreed the supposed errors were not errors at all.

He probably died under torture during his second trail.
Well that's a suggestion without foundation.

Teresa of Avila was ...
All this is by-the-by. The idea that under the gnostics life would have been easier is uncertain and dubious. The Cathars, for example, were far more strict that the Catholic Church, and had the Cathars ruled Christendom it would have been a much bleaker and more dogmatic place ...

Mainstream Christianity followed the Aristotelian-Thomistic model of God or classical theism.
In which the great mystical texts flourished.

Mysticism stressed the oneness of God and creation.
In Christianity the Cosmos is a theophany. In many mystical systems – the gnostic systems for example – creation is essential evil, or at best a necessary evil and the idea is to escape the created order. The Christian orthodox view is that God is all-in-all, and that creation is something intrinsically good, and that the communion with God can be here and now.
 
NO, I don't agree with you at all here. Gnostics stressed the the Kingdom was within us, not something about to happen out there. That being the case, you do not need the priests as intercessors.
However,you want to slice it, the fact of the matter is that Eckhart was declared a heretic, period. The main bone of contention being his emphasis on the unity of God and the soul. And the fact still remains that Teresa had trouble with the Inquisition, and that Porete was burnt. Mysticism may have been flourishing, but only at great risk. I add that it certainly did not flourish much in Protestant circles either.

Mystics have been stereotyped, as you describe them, as very ascetic, world-negating people. Granted, some forms of mysticism, such as Gnosticism, do move that way. However, there is a much more positive side to mysticism, a world-affirming side. That actually s the theme of my dissertation, by the way. I was especially interested in Eckhart, Boehme, and Dionysius, among many others in the Christian or love mystical tradition. I found that they did stress on ontological unity between God and the world. Eckhart and Boehme believed creation was God's own self-evolution into consciousness.

I completely disagree with your description of teh Christian orthodox view. In classical or traditional Christian theism, God and the world are set in opposition. God is the complete and total negation of the world. They are like oil and water and do not mix. Hence, God is described as void of body, parts passions, compassion, immutable, wholly outside creation, static, aloof, unmoved. In Thomas, for example, God has to remain outside creation, as otherwise he would be conditioned by creation. The orthodox or classical approach centered on the via negative, that finite, creaturely adjectives cannot be applied to God. That means we could only say what God is not, not what God is. That is a point stressed in Thomas. So I understand mysticism as representing an alternative to the Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition.
 
Gnostics stressed the the Kingdom was within us, not something about to happen out there.
So does Scripture, the terminology is Scriptural, after all. The understanding of the Christian process is all interior: metanoia-kenosis-thesis. This is all in accord with the Abrahamic view of God. In Hebrew its Shekinah, in Christianity its Pneuma – the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Christian 'revolution' was that this indwelling was not in the Holy of Holies that only the High Priest could enter, but in the soul of everyman.

The gnostics believed that creation was a necessary evil to catch the falling spark, and that the whole idea is to escape this world. That's a given. The gnostics believed that not all men could be saved, as not all men possessed the divine spark – the hylics. And that the psychics had the spark, but it had to be actualised by a pneumatic, without whom they were helpless.

That being the case, you do not need the priests as intercessors.
No you don't. And they're not. In the gnostics systems you do.

However,you want to slice it, the fact of the matter is that Eckhart was declared a heretic, period.
Certain ideas attributed to Eckart were condemned as heretical, the rest is propaganda.

But Eckhart was not a gnostic in the sense of 2nd century Gnosticism. He was a gnostic in the Christian sense of the term, which is not about knowledge, but about being.

And the fact still remains that Teresa had trouble with the Inquisition, and that Porete was burnt. Mysticism may have been flourishing, but only at great risk. I add that it certainly did not flourish much in Protestant circles either.
Well the Reformation began the rationalising of religion.

And yes, some mystics have suffered, I can name more, St John of the Cross another example. But a mystic will always push the envelope and there are always those ready to condemn for whatever reason. Eckart was subject to jealousy. But then there is Aquinas and Bonaventure, two mystics who did not suffer, because they luckily did not come across the small-minded.

Mystics have been stereotyped, as you describe them, as very ascetic, world-negating people.
Not by me. I don't agree with that stereotype at all.

Granted, some forms of mysticism, such as Gnosticism, do move that way.
I don't see 2nd century Gnosticism as mystical, more superstitious. Their vision of the divine is of personalities suffering human personality disorders

However, there is a much more positive side to mysticism, a world-affirming side.
All mystics are world affirming, even when they practice asceticism and detachment. Again, gnostics are not world-affirming, they're world-denying.

I was especially interested in Eckhart, Boehme, and Dionysius, among many others in the Christian or love mystical tradition. I found that they did stress on ontological unity between God and the world.
Every Christian mystic does.

Eckhart and Boehme believed creation was God's own self-evolution into consciousness.
Really. Can you cite where Eckhart says that?

I completely disagree with your description of teh Christian orthodox view. In classical or traditional Christian theism, God and the world are set in opposition. God is the complete and total negation of the world. They are like oil and water and do not mix.
You might think this, but believe me, it is totally wrong view.

In Thomas, for example, God has to remain outside creation, as otherwise he would be conditioned by creation.
Quite. The belief is not pantheism. The universe is created, God is not. So God exists as God, whether the universe exists or not.

The orthodox or classical approach centered on the via negative, that finite, creaturely adjectives cannot be applied to God.
Yes.

That means we could only say what God is not, not what God is. That is a point stressed in Thomas. So I understand mysticism as representing an alternative to the Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition.
Subjective and sentimental mysticism, yes. but even a Julian or a Teresa understood the distinctions.

Christian mysticism transcends the natural order, and passes through the veil of forms into the formless – hence from the Epistles of Paul and the Gospel of John we have the foundation of the apophatic tradition. In Dionysius we have the discussion of the Divine Names and how attributes given to God can only be done so analogically. God does hot have head hands and feet, He does not have heart and mind and memory, He is not a moral agent ... He is not determined by any contingency.

The same is implicit in Buddhism, which does not so much deny God (but simply says its beyond discussion), in Hinduism and in Daoism. Too much an emphasis on the sensible and the sentimental, the positive or cataphatic determinations, leads to 'fixed ideas' and idolatry.

But again, Christian mysticism is neither all apophatic nor all cataphatic, but a continual dynamic engagement between the two – I think it's your categorising things as 'this' and 'that' is leading to stereotypical ideas of what something is or isn't.

Eckhart was, you should remember, a reformer who travelled much sorting out error and heterodoxy and bringing wayward congregations back into orthodoxy – he was a champion of orthodoxy. He would dismiss gnosticism with a sharp rebuke.
 
Scripture looks forward to a kingdom coming out there, however. That is quite plain.

The gnostics need a coach, not a priest. Through the "coach," they can learn to transcend time and space and project themselves into the world of the divine. They can deal directly with the world of the divine. The orthodox do not allow for this. That's why they have the priests as intercessors. You misunderstand my basic point here.

In what sense was Aquinas a mystic? Toward the end of his life, he had a mystical experience and quit all writing. But before that, no.
Their vision of the divine is personalities suffering personality disorders? Inflammatory rhetoric, not relevant here.

Eckhart says that in his doctrine of the Trinity. God he says, would have experienced himself not as a self but as a void, had he not differentiated into Father and Son, in whom he crated all things.

Gnostics are world-negating. However, they are mystics because they are seeking direct union with the divine.
You might think this, but it is a totally wrong view? Inappropriate response. You have not paid attention to what I said earlier. The description of God, as provided by the fathers and creeds, stressed God is void of body, parts, passions, compassion, immutable. That pretty much set God up in opposition to us, especially as we cannot ascribe any creaturely attributes to God.

You didn't believe mysticism was world-negating? That's odd because that is exactly how you describe it. Also, there is good reason to see mysticism as world-negating, as many of the texts point that way. I view those as part of the Dark Night. When the mystics emerges from that, then God and the universe are seen as one. The mystics sets up false dichotomies,, only to overcome them.

Mysticism is the apophatic tradition? Stereotype on your part. Also, your account of Dionysius is inadequate. Yes, he does follow the via negative. However, he also negates his negations. He also has an affirmative theology in which he identifies absolutely everything with God. Also, mystics such as te4esa express unity with God in highly emotional, almost erotic terms. God is no empty void, but a super-affectionate spouse.
 
Scripture looks forward to a kingdom coming out there, however. That is quite plain.
And it also states explicitly that the kingdom is within. The meaning of 'kingdom' is context dependent.

The gnostics need a coach, not a priest.
I’m basing my understanding on the gnostic texts. In 2nd century Gnosticism, mankind falls into three distinct types: pneumatic, psychic and hylic. It is possible for the pneumatic to self-realise, but normally is led to realisation by another pneumatic. The psychic cannot self-realise and is dependent upon the pneumatic. The hylics are lost and beyond hope. Christianity, on the contrary holds to the hope that all men are saved.

In what sense was Aquinas a mystic?
In what sense was Eckhart?

Eckhart says ...
Where?

You might try reading Johannes Scottus Eriugena's 'The Division of Nature' when he discusses forms (categories) and the Formless (beyond categories). Christian metaphysical speculation puts God firmly in the Formless, transcending the world of forms, all categories, all created orders, all relations. Eckart drew on Eriugena quote a lot. I think you'd get a lot from it.

All this can be traced back to Scripture (1 Corinthians 13:12, 1 John 3:2 for example). Both Paul and John speak in apophatic terms, but both in other places speak in the cataphatic – dialect again – and of course the Hebrew Scriptures point to a God beyond forms, although its language is totally mythopoeic and makes rich use of imagery.

Trouble is today, everyone's getting would up about the language, and missing what's being said!

Gnostics are world-negating.
Inherent in dualist systems, especially one as pessimistic as theirs.

However, they are mystics because they are seeking direct union with the divine
LOL, everyone who utters a prayer seeks that. The Gnostics are nothing special in that regard, although they might like to think themselves so!

The description of God, as provided by the fathers and creeds, stressed God is void of body, parts, passions, compassion, immutable.
Not quite. Scripture says God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and God is love (caritas) (1 John 4:7) ...

That pretty much set God up in opposition to us, especially as we cannot ascribe any creaturely attributes to God.
Really? The fact that two things are different does not mean they are in opposition. Men and women are different genders ... I think you're reading your own commentary here ... what shines out in Christ is the love of God for creation. Why you see it as opposition I have no idea.

You didn't believe mysticism was world-negating?
Depends on the paradigm. Christian mysticism, no.

That's odd because that is exactly how you describe it.
I don't think so.

Also, there is good reason to see mysticism as world-negating, as many of the texts point that way.
I cannot comment without the text.

Eckhart, for example, praises detachment (ascesis) as the prince of virtues, but he does not 'negate the world' – how can He, when Scripture tells us God loves the world?

I view those as part of the Dark Night.
The Dark Night, in Christian mystical terms, is far, far more than the negation of the world.

When the mystics emerges from that, then God and the universe are seen as one. The mystics sets up false dichotomies, only to overcome them.
I don't think they do. I think there's a tendency to assume meanings, and thereby dichotomies.

Mysticism is the apophatic tradition? Stereotype on your part.
Please read my post again, that's not what I said. What I said was there is an apophatic and a cataphatic way, and the dialectic between the two, 'the Middle Way', which self-corrects the errors of over-emphasis of both – the one is negation, the other is idolatry.

Also, your account of Dionysius is inadequate.
LOL! I wouldn't attempt to account for Dionysius here!

Yes, he does follow the via negative. However, he also negates his negations. He also has an affirmative theology in which he identifies absolutely everything with God.
Quite. That's the dialectic I was referring to.

Also, mystics such as te4esa express unity with God in highly emotional, almost erotic terms.
Yes. The Orthodox get most over-heated by it!

God is no empty void...
Indeed. The void is not empty.
 
Christianity, since day one, has also argued that not all will be saved. Again, Gnosticism is arguing that one can go directly to the divine and connect with it. Some training is needed, of course. Incidentally, gnostic systems can vary. Not all have this three-part division. The church went on the idea that you can't, you need priests to intercede between you and God.
The NT looks forward to a Kingdom coming. Paul looks forward to an immanent Second Coming, for example, The Book of Revelations looks forward to an end of the world. Gnosticism is completely different. The Kingdom exists right now and you can go there if you are willing to cut all ties with the temporal-material world. You find the Kingdom by looking deep into yourself, not by looking out to the future.
It's bad to answer a question with a question. I don't think Aquinas was a mystic. He does not appeal to or seek mystical experiences. He stresses the radical dualism of God and the world. Toward the end of his career, he did have a mystical experience and it floored him, stopped all his writings, which he said were worthless. Eckhart is different. Eckhart does stress the unity of God and the world. Eckhart states, "God is in all things and is all things in all things everywhere all things everything." The eternal 'birth" of God through the Son is accomplished by God speaking forth all things through the Son. The 'birth of God" is equated with all things 'pouring forth" or coming to be. God would have no consciousness, no personality, without differentiation into self and other. Without the Son, God would then appear to himself not as a self but as an 'empty void." Eckhart states, "Before there were creatures, God was not God. But when creatures came into existence, then God was ...God in creatures." Eckhart also points to personal experiences of mystical union with God, which he eloquently described in a poem, which I'm not going to type out here, due to time limitations.
Scripture presents a highly anthropomorphic God and does not present God as some empty void.
You need to study more the church fathers. St. Anselm made of point of arguing that because God is passionless, he is also without compassion. Aquinas made the same point.
The via negative essentially says that what we have, God does not. That sets up the and the world as polar opposites. Go dis the negation of creation.
Mysticism has had a long reputation for being world-negating simply because the literature provides so many passages urging us to forsake and renounce the world. For example, Eckhart makes many statements that write off the spacio-temporal world as a mere illusion to be put aside if we are to attain the divine. He states, "God is truth, but creatures in time are not truth." He states that nothing hinders the soul's quest for God as time and space (Niht enhindert die sele so sere an der bekentisse gotes als zit unde stat). Eckhart was a most unsystematic writer and so it would be very easy to write him off as pushing a static, world-negating image of God.

The Dark Night of the Soul is a time when the mystics feel deeply alone and alienated form God. I believe this arid period of alienation points to a lack of wholeness in our emotional lives. The soul is struggling against a God who is luring it to greater depth and breadth of experience. You have to collapse, give up, before you can drop your defenses, the narrow boundaries you draw around yourself, and experience the unity, the interconnectedness of all things, including God. That is what I meant when I said that the mystics sets up false dichotomies, only to overcome them.
 
Hi Hoghead –

I wanted to revisit our discussion in an attempt to clarify a couple of points.

The first I think if we’re talking about the 2nd century, we need to define ‘mystic’. It did not carry the implications it does today. The word comes from the Greek, from the root verb ‘to seal the lips’ and it refers to an initiate – who was sworn to secrecy. This initiation was into ‘the Mysteries’. In the case of the Gnostic Schools, it’s an initiation into the rites and rituals of the school. In the case of the Christian, it’s an initiation (baptism) into the Christian Mysteries – the Liturgies, the Agape Meal and the Eucharist.

So I would say that both are ‘mystery schools’ in the ancient sense of the term, but the Mysteries in question diverge radically. I think a useful key to discerning the difference between Gnosticism and Christianity is in emanationism.

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According to Philo, God cannot act on the world immediately, but only through powers or forces (pneuma) which are not identical with Him, but proceed from Him. The primitive Divine force is the Logos. Whether the Logos is a substance or only an attribute, remains obscure. From the Logos the Spirit (pneuma) proceeds. It is the vivifying principle of the world and of the psyche, the individual soul.

The first clear and systematic expression of emanationism is found in Neo-Platonism. According to Plotinus, the first principle of all things is the One. Absolute unity and simplicity (one-ness) is the best expression by which God can be designated. As the One is pure formless essence, no attribute or determination (form) can be predicated of the One without introducing a limitation and/or multiplicity/complexity. Even ‘intelligence' and ‘will' cannot belong to this Primal Reality, for they imply the duality of subject and object, and duality necessarily presupposes a higher unity.

The One can be described as the Absolute, the Infinite, the Boundless, the First, the Good, the Light, the Universal Cause. From the One all things proceed; not by creation, which would be an act of the will, and therefore incompatible with unity; nor by a spreading of the Divine substance as pantheism teaches, since this would do away with the essential oneness. The One is not all things, but before all things. Emanation is the process by which all things are derived from the One. The infinite goodness and perfection is said to "overflow", and, while remaining within itself and losing nothing of its own perfection, it generates other beings, sending them forth from its own superabundance. Or again, as brightness is produced by the rays of the sun so everything is a radiation (perilampsis) from the Infinite Light. (The ancients were not aware that suns and stars are effectively finite and burning themselves out.)

The ‘Fall’ in emanationism and Gnosticism holds that the individual soul is eternal, and existed in a timeless ‘beatific vision’ of God. For some reason that is never adequately explained, the soul becomes ‘satiated’ and in its fulness turns away from the Divine, and this turning away precipitates its fall. Matter was then created as the necessary and expedient means of catching the falling soul and thus preventing its fall becoming infinite and eternal.

Early Gnostic systems regarded the world of matter as a necessary product brought about by the first evil, which was the turning away from God, and that the world is a place of perdition and punishment from which the soul must try to flee the world and escape back to the Divine. Thus these world views were negative with regard to creation, and nihilistic with regard to human possibility.

Later systems, and Origen was a friend of these, regarded the world as pedagogic rather than punitive. Again the creation is an unfortunate and ill-fated necessity, but here is the place where the soul learns and by learning can return to its source.

In all emanationist systems, the emanations form a series of successive steps, each the product and image of its predecessor, though inferior to it. The first reality that emanates from the One is the Nous, a pure intelligence, an immanent and changeless thought, putting forth no activity outside of itself, it simply is what it is.

The Nous is an image of the One, and, coming to recognize itself as an image, introduces the first duality, that of subject and object. The Nous includes in itself the intellectual world, or world of ideas, the kosmos nontos of Plato.

From Nous emanates the World Soul pneuma, the transition between the world of ideas and the world of the senses. It is intelligent and, in this respect, similar to the ideal world. Pneuma realizes the ideas in the material world, and in so doing Pneuma generates individual souls, psyche, which are the "forms" of all things.

Finally, the soul and its particular forces beget matter, which is of itself indetermined and becomes determined by its union with the form.

With variations in detail, the same essential doctrine of emanation is taught by Iamblichus and Proclus. With Plotinus, Iamblichus identifies the One with the Good, but assumes an absolutely first One, anterior to the One, and utterly ineffable. From it emanates the One; from the One, the intelligible world (ideas); and from the intelligible world, the intellectual world (thinking beings). According to Proclus, from the One come the unities (enades), which alone are related to the world. From the unities emanate the triads of the intelligible essences (being), the intelligible-intellectual essences (life), and the intellectual essences (thought). These again are further differentiated. Matter comes directly from one of the intelligible triads.

Gnostics teach that from God, the Father, emanated numberless Divine, supra-mundane Æons, each one less and less perfect than the one before (as many as thirty plus emanations in some systems), which taken together, constitute the fullness (pleroma) of Divine life. Wisdom, the last of these, produced an inferior wisdom named Achamoth, and also the psychical and material worlds. To denote the mode according to which an inferior is derived from a superior degree, Basilides uses the term aporroia ("flowing from", "efflux"), and Valentinus, the term probole (throwing forth, projection).

Thus the ascent, for the Gnostic, is to make one’s way back through the levels, the emanations, the Aeons, each one accessed from the one below only to those who have the ‘keys of knowledge’ to unlock the path, as it were.

The Kabbala the doctrine of the Sephiroth is essentially a doctrine of emanations. It was developed and systematized especially in the thirteenth century. The Sephiroth are the necessary intermediaries between God and the universe, between the intellectual and the material world. They are divided into three groups, the first group of three forming the world of thought, the second group, also of three, the world of soul, and the last group, of four, the world of matter.

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Pseudo-Dionysius for example, frequently borrowed from Plotinus and Proclus, adapting the language to the teachings of Christianity. God is primarily goodness (e.g.: Psalm 53:8, Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19, 3 John 1:11) and love (1 John 4:8). The difference then In Christianity there is no emanationism.

The Fathers and early Christian writers, working a doctrine from the words of Christ in Scripture, recast the triune of the One, the Logos and Pneuma not as an hierarchical emanation, but as Trinity – the One is Three and the Three are One. One, Logos and Pneuma are all God, without distinction, the same substance, the same essence, the same in every sense, not three Gods but one God.

The term used was Perichoresis to describe this process, in that, for example, the Wisdom of God is not another God, nor less than God, but is God. So God and His wisdom is really one and the same thing. In the same way, God is God. The Logos of God is God, the Spirit of God is God. God can be said to ‘beget’ His Logos as Father begets Son, but really – as the dispute with the Arians made clear – there was never a time when God was not Father, Son and Holy Spirit — monotheism did not become bitheism and then tritheism – there is just One God in Three Persons.

Perichoresis describes the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as an indwelling (Heb, shekinah). This process also extends to the community of the faithful: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:21).

This, in a sense, is the foundational statement of Christian mysticism.

It is not an emanationist doctrine. Thus the relationship of dependence between the gnostic master and disciple, again one of emanation from higher to lower, from pneumatic to psychic, does not reflect the relation of the presbyter to the congregation in the Christian community. In that community, the presbyter is chosen from among the community to lead the Mysteries, and in the traditional form the presbyter faced the altar and the tabernacle before and with the people, not as intermediary but as one of the community. And in the Agape Meal God is present at the feast, not in the presbyter and through the presbyter to the people, but at the feat and immanently present in the people, one to another.

An ancient saying of the Fathers was: 'Love God and love thy neighbour, because where thy neighbour is, there is God’.

The same is held of the Eucharist. God is present in the Eucharist, not in the presbyter, and priest and people participate and receive the Eucharist.
 
Christianity, since day one, has also argued that not all will be saved.
Not quite. It's God's will that all men will be saved. It's a gnostic doctrine that the helices, the most part of humanity, are beyond salvation.

Again, Gnosticism is arguing that one can go directly to the divine and connect with it.
Debatable. You have to work your way up through the emanations.

The church went on the idea that you can't, you need priests to intercede between you and God.
Again, a misconception. There is no 'intercessor' other than Christ, and He is sufficient for salvation.

The NT looks forward to a Kingdom coming. Paul looks forward to an immanent Second Coming, for example, The Book of Revelations looks forward to an end of the world.
Yep. The General Resurrection.

Gnosticism is completely different. The Kingdom exists right now and you can go there if you are willing to cut all ties with the temporal-material world. You find the Kingdom by looking deep into yourself, not by looking out to the future.
Well 'the kingdom is within' and similar sayings are drawn from Christian Scripture. And the Christian holds that one does not have to cut ties with the temporal world. The temporal world is as much part of God's creation as any other world. What we have to overcome is ourselves, and 'the world' was used as a short-cut to this, but Christianity is not a dualism.

I don't think Aquinas was a mystic. He does not appeal to or seek mystical experiences.
I do. But seeking mystical experience is not what Christianity is about. Union with God is the aim, nothing less. Eckhart never set out to become a mystic, nor does he ever speak of experience.

Toward the end of his career, he did have a mystical experience and it floored him, stopped all his writings, which he said were worthless.
Not quite. He said they were as straw, but not worthless.

Eckhart does stress the unity of God and the world. Eckart states...
All that is Christian orthodoxy, and in fact everything came be traced back. It;'s just that Eckhart put it all together. If he had never been accused of heresy, he would never be the star that he is. There are others who said the same, and more, and are hardly known. Look at Eriugena, centuries before Eckhart.

Scripture presents a highly anthropomorphic God and does not present God as some empty void.
Scripture presents God as both, but never as 'a void'. The void is never empty, it's the superabundant fulness.

You need to study more the church fathers. St. Anselm made of point of arguing that because God is passionless, he is also without compassion. Aquinas made the same point.
Yes. And I can make that point stick. God is not a moral agent. We derive our moral values from God, but God is not governed by moral values. God is not God because He is good, He is Good because He is God, and we ascribe all goodness to Him, but He is beyond Good ...

The via negative essentially says that what we have, God does not.
No. The via negative says God transcends anything we can predicate of Him.

That sets up the and the world as polar opposites. Go dis the negation of creation.
No, that's not it at all.

Mysticism has had a long reputation for being world-negating simply because the literature provides so many passages urging us to forsake and renounce the world.
Depends who's mysticism. Some seek 'experience'. Others seek God, who is beyond all things, all experience. This is why the great Christian mystical masterpieces, The Cloud of Unknowing, The Imitation of Christ, the writings of Eckhart, all speak of someone that cannot be experienced because it transcends the physical 'sensorium' – experience is in the physical orders, but God is not physical.

For example, Eckhart makes many statements that write off the spacio-temporal world as a mere illusion to be put aside if we are to attain the divine.
Elkhart's point is that everything is sustained by God. Nothing is self-sustaining. So, ontologically, everything owes its existence to God, not just in the first act of creation, but in the dynamic process of being. God is the source of all being, and without God there would be no being, so in that sense nothing exists of itself, everything exists because of God. Eckart never 'writes off' the world, but rather says that everything points to its source, which is God, and so in that sense is 'unreal' because God alone is real, and the world's realness is from God.

"God is truth, but creatures in time are not truth."
But they are not lies. They are evidences and symbols that point to the truth of God, not themselves.

He states that nothing hinders the soul's quest for God as time and space
And the question for 'mystical experience' which is in and of time and space!

The Dark Night of the Soul is a time when the mystics feel deeply alone and alienated form God.
That's because God let's them taste their non-existence. After that, they can truly taste God. Only the very, very strong can do this.

I believe this arid period of alienation points to a lack of wholeness in our emotional lives.
Well that's the Dark Night at a lower level, but the Dark Night as spoken of by St John of the Cross is something way and beyond that.
 
Thanks for yur review, Thomas. Yes, I was already aware of that material. But thanks for reminding me.
 
The rest of your material, Thomas, I find highly debatable. For example, yes, Eckhart does present passages where he writes off the spacio-material world as unreal, an illusion. I just showed you two of them. Eckhart is noted for appearing very contradictory. In Eckhart, the universe would appear to be the body of God. So yes, he sees God as a physical being,obviously. You misunderstand the via negative. We cannot predicate anything of God, because all predication would attribute finite, creaturely attributes to God. No, you didn't make your point stick. For example. God's relationship to goodness is unique, but that does not make God nongood. God's relationship to time is unique, but does not of necessity mean that God is atemporal or outside time. Yes, the priests do function as intercessors. That's why they are there.
 
Eckhart does present passages where he writes off the spacio-material world as unreal, an illusion.
Yes, and as I have shown, in Christian doctrine one can say as much, in that the patio-material world depends on God for its sustenance and continuance. It's a matter of ontology. It's reality is not it's own, it is real by the grace and gift of God. If God ceased to exist, then so would the world.

Eckhart is noted for appearing very contradictory.
I'd say difficult, but not contradictory.

In Eckhart, the universe would appear to be the body of God. So yes, he sees God as a physical being,obviously.
I'm sorry, that's not the case. Meister Eckhart was not a pantheist, though it’s easy enough to understand how someone would get that impression.

The mediaevals had distinguished between the active and passive functions of the mind; they called them ‘ratio’ and ‘intellectus’. ‘Ratio’ is the discursive mind, what today we call 'intellect'. The ‘intellectus’ is the intuitive faculty, and in the case of the religious believer, the mystical faculty.

When Eckhart says “whoever sees God sees nothing but one,” this is an 'intellectus' statement, the product of study and contemplation. Julian of Norwich said much the same thing: “I saw no difference between God and our substance, but, as it were, all God.” She followed with: “... my understanding accepted that our substance is in God, that is to say that God is God, and our substance is a creature in God.” Her first expression is from ‘intellectus’, the second from ‘ratio’. This is how the two functions work together, as the mediaevals understood. What Eckhart did not do was follow his statements with the reasoned argument from faith, and so his detractors found around on which to accuse him of heresy.

Eckhart repeatedly says (like Julian) that “the creature is in God,” and “God is in every creature.” This is no more or less than what the great multitude of Christian writers have said throughout the centuries. It is a particular panentheism. Pantheism is the belief that everything is God; this could never be an orthodox Christian view, nor was it Eckhart's. Panentheism is the belief that everything is in God, God is in everything, but God alone is God, and things are things, not God nor even Divine, although the work of the Divine. This view is perfectly orthodox.

You misunderstand the via negative.
I understand the Christian view.

We cannot predicate anything of God, because all predication would attribute finite, creaturely attributes to God.
Yes.

God's relationship to goodness is unique, but that does not make God no-good.
God is not related to good, God is good. What is good is what God wills, so God is prior to and before good. He does not will because He is good, in which case the good would govern God.

God's relationship to time is unique, but does not of necessity mean that God is atemporal or outside time.
The Christian God, Eckhart's God, is outside time.

The Internet encyclopaedia of philosophy is quite good on Eckhart: http://www.iep.utm.edu/eckhart/
 
No, I don't agree with you at all here, Thomas. Sorry. For example, Eckhart is very pantheistic and clearly states that God is all things. That makes him s a major alternative to classical theism. it also appears to be what got him in trouble with the church, especially the way he identifies himself with God.
 
No, I don't agree with you at all here, Thomas. Sorry. For example, Eckhart is very pantheistic and clearly states that God is all things. That makes him s a major alternative to classical theism. it also appears to be what got him in trouble with the church, especially the way he identifies himself with God.
If you understood Eckhart correctly, you'd understand.

The accusations against Eckhart were motivated more by political intrigue that theological difference. And, as has been stated by the Catholic Church, his position is entirely orthodox, and as such there is no problem with his theology.
 
Have been following the discussions between Thomas, Shuny, Hoghead, et. al. with interest. As someone looking in from the outside as it were, what I am seeing is people using the same sources to make separate, indeed opposing points. The conundrum is how each interprets the classical authors. Based on personal interpretations the claim is that a person 'understands' the source material, or that a person does not understand. That looking at it one way you come to conclusion A, looking at it the other way you get conclusion B.

My point is that learned individuals can come to very different conclusions while using the same source documents. That may seem like a 'duh' statement, but I watch and see the arguments going on and on and on based upon the view one takes.

The point to my point. Is there really AN answer? It doesn't seem that way to me.
 
The worst Eckhart did was rake the Roman Church over the coals for exclusive truth claims and contributing to violence and dysfunctional problems of the world. He actually was an equal opportunity critic of all churches, religions and sects which made similar claims. His theology concerning the nature of God was vague, universal, and nebulous enough the Roman Church was not threatened by his beliefs, which is accommodating as long as the authority of the church is not directly challenged. I believe his view was more like a spiritual pantheism.

He did endorse a more apophatic view of God and a more universal view of Revelation similar to the Baha'i Faith.

I would not consider his views entirely orthodox, not even close.
 
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Have been following the discussions between Thomas, Shuny, Hoghead, et. al. with interest. As someone looking in from the outside as it were, what I am seeing is people using the same sources to make separate, indeed opposing points. The conundrum is how each interprets the classical authors. Based on personal interpretations the claim is that a person 'understands' the source material, or that a person does not understand. That looking at it one way you come to conclusion A, looking at it the other way you get conclusion B.

My point is that learned individuals can come to very different conclusions while using the same source documents. That may seem like a 'duh' statement, but I watch and see the arguments going on and on and on based upon the view one takes.

The point to my point. Is there really AN answer? It doesn't seem that way to me.

Good post! I actually debate in an advocacy manner, and I do not necessarily believe what I believe is the 'only answer.' Nonetheless agendas do tend to cloud the dialogue.

Ultimately no, there is not really AN answer, especially when your advocating a metaphysical belief.
 
Thomas, if you would have read and understood Eckhart, you would agree with me. Bottom line: I do not need you are anyone else here to lecture me on Eckhart or anything else. I know what I am doing. If you don't like what I say, that is your problem. You are no scholar, no expert, or authority, and I am not about to take seriously anything some amateur like you has to say. So tone it down, junior, in your posts.
 
It's no irony. He is an amateur and out of his league here. I view myself as an expert here and I have the publications and credentials to prove that.
 
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