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Max S.

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I am Max, and I am currently searching for a religious path that suits me.
I'm a biochemistry student with a strong spiritual affinity for natural systems. I don't know whether or not this board is an appropriate place to explain all the details of my path, but I'm looking to read about many religions and choose what best suits my understanding and experience.
Glad to be here.
 
Welcome!
Many have passed through to share their paths and we are always interested to listen. Go into as much details as you are comfortable with!
 
Hi, Max, and welcome to the forum.

It's good to start with a discussion about ideas. Which religious ideas resonate with you the most?
 
Alright, here we go.
I grew up in a self-isolating Christian group and I've had a falling-out with it. There are many people in the group that I care strongly about and there are some beliefs that have stayed with me, but there's just something about insisting that evolution is fake that doesn't sit well with a biology student... And something about saying transgender people are delusional that doesn't sit well with a trans man. So here I am, with a spirituality-shaped hole in my heart.

Here's where my beliefs are right now:

I see one God, one divinity, everywhere. Learning about the natural world and the complexity of it strengthens this core belief. I can't say for sure that it's the Abrahamic God rather than Brahman or someone/something else, and, to be honest, I wouldn't say with any certainty that one faith's divine is very different from another faith's divine. Perhaps we're all seeing the same thing with different faces, that's cool too. To me, God is genderless, all-encompassing, and either benevolent or indifferent.

God's one reliable revealed word is the Earth, not the Bible. In my opinion, the Bible has lost too much to mistranslation and is defended with too much circular logic. Nature has more to tell us about the divine anyway, and this is why I'm a chemist and a biologist.

Evolution is real, the Earth really has matured over a few billion years, and this does not mean that God was not responsible for creating it. For example, God must be exclusively responsible for the laws of physics and the mechanisms involved in life's metabolism and self-replication, and that makes God responsible for creation/evolution jointly. The two concepts don't conflict. I don't know how distinct God is from these natural processes as an entity because I have no evidence of God being larger than this effect on our world. If I say that God is present throughout nature or that God is the embodiment of these natural processes, it's my understanding that this can be interpreted to lean toward pantheism, but I am not familiar enough with pantheism to say with any certainty that I am or am not a pantheist.

Jesus is a real, ammendable person. Much of what he said differs from one gospel to another, and the gospels were cherry-picked at the Council of Nicea. Jesus' individual statements should not be trusted on a word-for-word basis, but his overall message is fairly consistent. Is he the Son of God? Should he be worshipped as if he is a God? These things don't have a lot of contextual proof going for them. I still have some faith or hope that Jesus might be the Son of God, but it's not an empirically-evidenced claim on my part, so I won't argue for it.

As a transgender and gay member of a multiple system, typical Christian congregations do not usually suit me, let alone want me in the building.

tl;dr: I frequently see some kind of God in nature, and I don't fully believe in the validity of the Bible.

I'm looking for some hard context for what faith I do have. Is there a preestablished faith that is similar to my beliefs? Can I build my own religious routine? What can I do as a regular (daily or weekly) practice to affirm to myself and to God that I'm still spiritually available (customized prayers/meditations) even though I'm a little lost?

Thank you for reading. This is very important to me.
 
Thanks for sharing!
There are some people here that I think you could have some exchanges but I'm not sure I've ever seen a combination of such strong opinions on monotheism, anti-tradition and pro-science before. Very interesting. I'm neither spiritual or religious (if you considerer them separate), so I don't know what to tell you! But please post on the board on topics that interest you and I'm sure you'll get some good discussions going.
 
I am Max, and I am currently searching for a religious path that suits me.
Hi Max, welcome to the forum. You'll find quite a diverse group here. Gets a bit heated at times, but well worth the effort. In reading your posts thus far a thread comes to mind that you may find helpful or at least interesting. It's all about the religious beliefs of the native peoples of Australia. http://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/17697/
 
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I'll see if I can check back when I have the time to fully explain the Islamic View of your situation. It's probably different than you imagine (by a religious view, though the community may not be as welcoming to the idea which is also explainable). Either way welcome.
 
Welcome, Max! We're happy that you've decided to join us as you're learning more about various faiths.
 
Hi Max,

You said,

“…there's just something about insisting that evolution is fake that doesn't sit well with a biology student...”

--> Yes, that’s quite a quandary for you to be in. But I must say that you should never let anyone tell you what you must or must not believe in. (As a matter of fact, in my belief system, it is forbidden for one person to tell another person what to believe.) If your 'friends' are telling you that evolution is fake, it is time for you to go out and find some new friends.

“I can't say for sure that it's the Abrahamic God rather than Brahman or someone/something else…”

--> You might want to spend some time learning the similarities between the Abrahamic God and Brahman. You also might want to spend some time learning the difference between Brahman and Brahmān. (I think the difference between Brahman and Brahmān could be an important part of your belief system.)

“I wouldn't say with any certainty that one faith's divine is very different from another faith's divine.”

--> I believe that a good Hindu person is making just as much progress toward heaven as a Christian is, a good Jew is, a good Muslim, is, etc.

“To me, God is genderless, all-encompassing, and either benevolent or indifferent.”

--> I agree, although I am not a theist in the way you are.

“In my opinion, the Bible has lost too much to mistranslation…”

--> I would add that parts of the Bible has been intentionally changed.

“Evolution is real…”

--> I agree.

“God must be exclusively responsible for the laws of physics and the mechanisms involved in life's metabolism and self-replication…”

--> I see it a different way, but then again, I am not a theist.

“…that makes God responsible for creation/evolution jointly. The two concepts don't conflict.”

--> I agree. It sounds like you have been spending a lot of time trying to defend your beliefs to your fundamentalist Christian friends. I suggest you stop even discussing these kinds of things with them.

“I don't know how distinct God is from these natural processes as an entity…”

--> I see no reason to say God is distinct from nature.

“If I say that God is present throughout nature or that God is the embodiment of these natural processes…”

--> How about saying God IS nature rather than God is present in nature? Is it necessary to distinguish that which is God from that which is not God?

“…it's my understanding that this can be interpreted to lean toward pantheism, but I am not familiar enough with pantheism to say with any certainty that I am or am not a pantheist.”

--> Feel free to ask questions about pantheism.

“Is he the Son of God?”

--> I think the question is, is Jesus a deity? (I do not think so.)

“As a transgender and gay member of a multiple system, typical Christian congregations do not usually suit me, let alone want me in the building.”

--> It is definitely time for you to find a new group of people to spend time with.

“I frequently see some kind of God in nature…”

--> So do I.

“…I don't fully believe in the validity of the Bible.”

--> Neither do I.

“Is there a preestablished faith that is similar to my beliefs?”

--> Look around. See what you find. I belong to something called Theosophy, so you might want to give that a look. You also might fit in well with Unitarians.

“Can I build my own religious routine?”

--> Yes, you can. Although I think you would benefit by spending time with a group of people who think like you do.

“What can I do as a regular (daily or weekly) practice to affirm to myself and to God that I'm still spiritually available (customized prayers/meditations) even though I'm a little lost?”

--> I suggest trying meditation. There are many kinds of meditation out there. See is there is a type of meditation that fits you.

“Thank you for reading. This is very important to me.”

--> Please remember that this may take a long time. I searched for decades before I found something I liked. Then, one day, Boom! There it was, a belief system that fit me perfectly. The same thing could happen to you. Enjoy the ride.
 
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I am Max, and I am currently searching for a religious path that suits me.

Hello and welcome. You want to see the world as a self sufficient ecosystem, and you also want to add a God into the mix to start everything rolling. This is not an uncommon belief nowadays. That God created space/time, and all the rules that govern how space/time will act, then stepped back and let the universe play out according to the system this god put into place.

Personally I don't see a need for any magical divinity to get the ball rolling. It just got rolling. There is no proof either way though, at least at this time. We don't understand how the universe came from nothing (although there are some theories), so the idea that a divinity was the spark is not more outlandish than that the spark started on its own.
 
Hello and welcome. You want to see the world as a self sufficient ecosystem, and you also want to add a God into the mix to start everything rolling. This is not an uncommon belief nowadays. That God created space/time, and all the rules that govern how space/time will act, then stepped back and let the universe play out according to the system this god put into place.

Personally I don't see a need for any magical divinity to get the ball rolling. It just got rolling. There is no proof either way though, at least at this time. We don't understand how the universe came from nothing (although there are some theories), so the idea that a divinity was the spark is not more outlandish than that the spark started on its own.
I shudder when I see posts like this. Not for myself mind you. I'm immune to nay sayers, but belittling God is very discouraging to someone trying to find their way. Someone who has reached out to the group with a clear interest in God and religion. You asked on another thread why man leans toward evil over good. :(
 
Actually what I said was "the idea that a divinity was the spark [of creation] is not more outlandish than that the spark started on its own." I see no belittling in that statement. In point of fact I give equal weight to both possibilities.

And your accusation that the mere suggestion that all this could have begun without a divinity is my belittling God, and makes me evil for doing so only shows your own closed minded bias on the subject.
 
Ok Here it goes, please be aware, I am probably going to say something that isn't going to agree with your person. But try to hear me out.
Alright, here we go.
I grew up in a self-isolating Christian group and I've had a falling-out with it. There are many people in the group that I care strongly about and there are some beliefs that have stayed with me, but there's just something about insisting that evolution is fake that doesn't sit well with a biology student... And something about saying transgender people are delusional that doesn't sit well with a trans man. So here I am, with a spirituality-shaped hole in my heart.
Evolution is quite well documented, while the extent that some people take it, seems a little far fetched without some kind of intervention or direction, it is clearly a well established theory with enough evidence to believe. I would say there are many Jews and Christians that have no problem with the idea. Most Muslims would say Science has shown great likelihood, therefore most of us accept it as a probable.

So here goes the part that starts off with the bad, In Islam, much as it is in Christianity and Judaism, Homosexuality is a sin in its action. One could argue the idea that had the seed of the feeling behind it is stemmed from a crossing of the straight path onto the wrong path, but that would be something of an issue with past. This same issue is true of the Transgender idea. I'm sure as a biology student you are aware of what organs and chromosomes separate the sexes. The hormones can be synthesized (although I'm not sure how healthy that really is), the genitalia can be removed/changed cosmetically, and of course clothing is purely optional as to what one would wear, but none of this changes the Chromosomal makeup of you. There has also (to my knowledge) never been a true gender swap where a person changes their original makeup into the other with functional reproductive organs. So that leads to the debate, is it a choice or are you born with it, or is it a product of environmental inputs in your life. I'm in the 3rd boat honestly. I think those feelings are input through some trigger in your life, and whether you wanted it or not, you were drawn to the idea. Much like racists, bigots, etc are usually stimulated by parents or some act that solidifies their idea. IMO this is the common thread among all the LGBT community. Somewhere a trigger was pulled and the idea that this could be ok or right to that person was pulled by an event in their life.

Now what does the scriptural Jews (unlike the reformed Jews who are pretty open to anything) and Christians say about the LGB idea, it is a sin, The bible is very clear that the action is disgusting to God. And if read literally commands to kill the perpetrators can be found. The Quran offers a slightly different approach. You see for Human actions, one must produce witnesses if you make an accusation. Sodomy, much like most "crimes" requires 2 witnesses. Unless one is displaying their actions in public, how would anyone know? In Islam public displays of affection are generally frowned upon and most Shariah scholars will say it is Haram (forbidden) (this includes public sexual actions, kissing, caressing, etc. with Holding hands with ones wife being debatable). Also seeking to see someone else in these acts are Haram. So if you keep it in your bedroom, hidden from view, it is impossible to prove, and therefore anyone who accuses the actions would be committing a great sin (bearing false witness). This would also mitigate the likelihood that one would ever see people acting like this and likely decrease the ideas from making it widespread. Children wouldn't even be exposed to sexual actions until they are married, to which they would never have seen anything to think this might not be right.

The Trans issue is slightly different. Given the Social structures of Islam, and the belief that Marriage is an important thing, a man who acts as a woman, offers nothing legal to a man. A woman dressed as a man (please stick to biologic descriptions, the swapped genders thing makes it tough to follow) would have nothing to bring to a marriage as she would not be able to impregnate her wife. These of course assume the trans person is marrying a non-trans. It also plays issues with Hijab usage, and social roles, and social interactions with others. From a strictly Shariah standpoint the trans person would not be able to legally function in society other than as a loner.

I have heard of a Hadith (and please if anyone knows the Hadith and it's location please feel free to post it) Where upon Mouhammed's (PBUH) acquiring of influence over a town a group of Eunuchs came to him to accept Islam (body mutilation is forbidden outside of circumcision where males is required and women is very slightly allowed under heavy regulation). His response was that they were free to accept Islam, but they would dwell separated from the rest of the Muslims (although it talks of their living away, it never seems to forbid them from enterring the city for work or trade).

That's all the time I got atm. I hope it is helpful in enlightening you, and whether you like or dislike this view, it is our view.
 
I'm in the 3rd boat honestly. I think those feelings are input through some trigger in your life, and whether you wanted it or not, you were drawn to the idea. Much like racists, bigots, etc are usually stimulated by parents or some act that solidifies their idea. IMO this is the common thread among all the LGBT community. Somewhere a trigger was pulled and the idea that this could be ok or right to that person was pulled by an event in their life.

Not sure why you have to have a position at all here, I'm sure you have come across many ignorant, very very ignorant (even stupid, so god damn stupid) opinions about Islam without them ever having experienced Islam?
 
Not sure why you have to have a position at all here, I'm sure you have come across many ignorant, very very ignorant (even stupid, so god damn stupid) opinions about Islam without them ever having experienced Islam?
ok, all pleasantries aside, the action is a very serious issue in terms of religious operation. Society will not function correctly if this type of thinking becomes central. It also has major implications in a sense of approving of Allah's omnipotence. To say you aren't the gender Allah made you, is to deny his wisdom. Noone is talking about anything crude, and I am not talking about trying to "cure" anything aside from finding the root cause of the "issue". And you are correct about people not experiencing Islam and being ignorant to it. But I also have no problem with someone studying Islam or analyzing it with a different religious scope, as long as they keep it in context. I am doing so from a religious and somewhat scientific one. If you have a problem with it, I cannot fathom why. We each have our view. Me having an opinion of such based on the context of knowledge I have portrayed here shouldn't be taken the same as say David Wood's grabbing 3 verses from the Quran, stating half of it and saying that's the way it is.

So please calm down and read it for what it was written for. MY OPINION. Which isn't a blind opinion, nor is it baseless. I've studied this topic actually for a brief time when my wife became friends with a trans "Jew". I, just like everyone else, can only base my conclusions on the science and experiences I have had.
 
Actually what I said was "the idea that a divinity was the spark [of creation] is not more outlandish than that the spark started on its own." I see no belittling in that statement.
Me either, but I think the line Aussie took exception to and found to be belittling is this one:
Personally I don't see a need for any magical divinity to get the ball rolling.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I thought that a bit tactless myself. I can also see where that would be more than a little discouraging to someone trying to find their way.
 
Joe for the most part I think your post #13 is a reasonable summation of the theological view. Probably the only part I would quite disagree with (and I'm not clear if you even said this but I think you did) is that homosexuality is a learned behavior, or one that is triggered by some subconscious action. Most all the science suggests that homosexuality is in your genes. You have no more choice about it than you do the color of your eyes.
 
I wasn't going to say anything, but I thought that a bit tactless myself. I can also see where that would be more than a little discouraging to someone trying to find their way.

Yes I understand your point. What I think is an overreaction is that I did not say NO THERE IS NO GOD INVOLVED. PERIOD. I said that I personally don't see any magical divinity as necessary to start creation. It is plainly stated as my opinion.
 
Me either, but I think the line Aussie took exception to and found to be belittling is this one: Personally I don't see a need for any magical divinity to get the ball rolling.
Yup, that's the one. I doubt it matters much anymore though. I have a feeling Max's been put off by subsequent posts and moved on.
In Islam, much as it is in Christianity and Judaism, Homosexuality is a sin in its action.
In Australia some Aboriginal cultures refer to those with homosexual tendencies as twin spirit. The belief being more than one spirit inhabits their body. In fact, many consider these individuals quite wise and seek them out for advice. For that matter, in many Aboriginal cultures a baby born with physical attributes of both male and female is cause for celebration. My dad use to say, "just because you enjoy a campfire doesn't mean you're a pyromaniac."
 
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Most all the science suggests that homosexuality is in your genes. You have no more choice about it than you do the color of your eyes.
There is enough science that says the opposite of that. Despite much want to prove it, no gene has been shown to swerve ones sexual tendencies. Primal thoughts would seem to push Hetero due to species survival. Again we must be specific, we aren't talking about a choice, but rather a behavioral trigger. These are the same triggers that would form anyone's persona. There is a trigger that causes certain behavioral traits that are not an inherited behavior. Identical twins separated at birth have been shown to have completely different behavioral traits, there have even been cases where 1 is Homosexual, the other Hetero. Even environmental factors when the child is developing in the womb have been shown to impact their persona.

I realize this is a sensitive subject, and it is very contested on all sides. So I can only offer my take, Science can't prove (yet at least) anything in any of them.
 
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