A question about sects

You are right.

I absolutely have no questions to ask. The forum here is based on a Question. I was only providing more FACTS about the subject in order to obtain a foundation to place answers upon.

I was hoping that You would have something to correct concerning my Facts. But I see that there is nothing to correct to the facts that I provided.
I am happy to show You each and every single time that I am able to do so - anything that you may need to know to answer questions that Muslims ask.

But after thirteen hundred Years, Muslims should already know these answers and even more = Non-Muslims also should know. And there seems to be a bottomless hole and book full of empty pages that could be filled just by adding facts and truth. I believe that You and others here may be Sola Quran in many aspects of this subject.

please eXplain Your Fathers revelations and prophecies in light of the Facts ?
 
You're not going to like this place Dreamy, we aren't that interested in debates or what you consider to be facts.
 
Gosh ! The Hell must be a very crowded place.

It was narrated from ‘Awf bin Malik that the Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) said:

“The Jews split into seventy-one sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy in Hell. The Christians split into seventy-two sects, seventy-one of which will be in Hell and one in Paradise. I swear by the One Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, my nation will split into seventy-three sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two in Hell.” It was said: “O Messenger of Allah, who are they?” He said: “The main body.”

Reference : Sunan Ibn Majah 3992 Book of Tribulations » Hadith
In-book reference : Book 36, Hadith 67
English translation : Vol. 5, Book 36, Hadith 399
 
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The overwhelming majority ("main body") of Muslims believe in The Oneness of Allah and the Finality of Prophet Muhammad. We go to Masjid, do our Prayers, work, pay our bills, love our families, watch TV, spend time with friends and just live our lives.

Sure, the "main body" is flawed, imperfect and (in my opinion) in need of an increase of depth & spirituality, but such is the human condition (Surahs 95 & 103).

The radical-extremist and terrorist represent a very, very small percentage of the nearly two billion Muslims on the planet.
 
Hell & heaven in Islam doesn't depend on your deeds & sins. Its already predetermined. Even a sinless innocent child is not exempted. Unbelievable!!

It was narrated that 'Aishah the Mother of the Believers said:


"The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was called to the funeral of a child from among the Ansar. I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, glad tidings for him! He is one of the little birds of Paradise, who never did evil or reached the age of doing evil (i.e, the age of accountability).' He said: 'It may not be so, O 'Aishah! For Allah created people for Paradise, He created them for it when they were still in their father's loins, And He has created people for Hell, He created them for it when they were still in their fathers' loins.'"

English reference : Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 82 ,Sunan Ibn Majah ;The Book of the Sunnah - كتاب المقدمة
Arabic reference : Book 1, Hadith 86
 
Allah says in The Quran:

"Surely whosoever works evil and is encompassed by it, will be the inmates of the Fire, therein they will abide.
And those who believe and do works of righteousness, they are the inmates of the Jannah (Paradise/Garden), therein they will abide."
(2:81-82)​

Throughout The Quran we are taught that our actions will be judged - that we will be held accountable for our actions and that there are consequences for them. This is very clear in Quran.

"And there is not for man except that which he strives for, (53:39)

In fact, according to Quran, good deeds are multiplied while evil deeds are not:

"Whosoever comes with a good deed, for him will be ten times the like thereof; and whosoever comes with an evil deed will be recompenced not but with the like thereof, and they will not be dealt with unjustly". (6:160)

Any Hadith must be judged in light of Quranic understanding. Hadiths differ on this very issue. Nothing overrides Quran.
Any Hadith contradicting Quran must be rejected.

The Hadith quoted (one of which I have a problem) speaks towards Qadar (Pre-ordainment), a fundamental belief in Islam. It is a deep and fascinating subject. The question always arises (early) when discussing Qadar - 'how can there be free-will and Pre-ordainment?'. It must be reflected upon that free-will is also Pre-ordained.

Qadar applies to "pre-creation" which we can't even properly express, since there was no "pre" "before" the creation of space and time. There was no "was" because there "was" no time.

A Believer in The Quran must believe that we are held accountable for our actions - essentially we "reap what we sow" - with the merciful component of our good deeds being multiplied, as quoted above.
 
Hmm, interestingly ,I think the following verses clearly implies predestination.

Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” (Qur'an 9:51)

Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him (Qur'an 4:88)

And the Sahih hadiths below supports the above verses.

Narrated 'Ali: "We were accompanying a funeral procession in Baqi-I-Gharqad.The Prophet came to us and sat and we sat around him. He had a small stick in his hand then he bent his head and started scraping the ground with it. He then said, "There is none among you, and not a created soul, but has place either in Paradise or in Hell assigned for him and it is also determined for him whether he will be among the blessed or wretched." A man said, "O Allah's Apostle! Should we not depend on what has been written for us and leave the deeds as whoever amongst us is blessed will do the deeds of a blessed person and whoever amongst us will be wretched, will do the deeds of a wretched person?" The Prophet said, "The good deeds are made easy for the blessed, and bad deeds are made easy for the wretched." Then he recited the Verses:-- "As for him who gives (in charity) and is Allah-fearing And believes in the Best reward from Allah. " (92.5-6) Sahih al-Bukhari 1362 Book of Funerals

Abu Hurairah reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :
Adam and Moses held a disputation. Moses said : Adam you are our father. You deprived us and caused us to come out from Paradise. Adam said : You are Moses Allah chose you for his speech and wrote the Torah for you with his hand. Do you blame me for doing a deed which Allah had decreed that I should do forty year before he created me? So Adam got the better of Moses in argument. Ahmad b. Salih said from 'Amr from Tawus who heard Abu Hurairah.
Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani)
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4701 Book of Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah)
 
"There does not befall any disaster in the earth or in your selves (souls) unless it is written in a book before We bring it into existence; indeed that is easy for Allah.

Lest you distress yourselves for what escapes you and be overjoyed over what He has granted you; And Allah does not love any arrogant boaster"
(57:22-23)

This is my favorite verses regarding Pre-ordainment, and such verses are just as much a part of The Quran as the verses telling us that we will be held accountable for our deeds.

Should one who believes in Quran accept the verses about Qadar and reject the verses about being held to account?

Or should a believer in Quran reject the verses about Qadar and accept the ones about accountability?

Or is there a union of the two? I believe there is.

If everything is Decreed, then the ability of choice is included in that Decree.

As I alluded to earlier, I believe the question "how can there be free-will and Pre-ordainment?" is comparable to the question "where was Allah before He created everything?". The words "where" and "before" indicate place (space) and time, which are part of creation; These are ineffable realities that cannot be understood within the parameters of created existence.

Free-will and Pre-ordainment, when viewed from the perspective of this worldly experience - within the illusory realms of space and time, are contradictory, but when viewed from the uncreated "realm" of the Amr (Command/Decree) they are not.

This is not an easy task and full understanding of these realities, in this world, is probably not possible; And Allah knows best. But we should, as Allah tells us in Quran, reflect upon the creation of the heavens and the earth - which us Muslims do not do nearly enough when it comes to this and many other Religious and Spiritual issues.
 
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dreamytrident said:
Hi

We know that The Prophet Muhammad claimed that the Gospels and Torah at His time were crutial and very, very important for all Muslims to look to, study and read and by them, all Muslims Even future Sufism Muslims are commanded to always turn to the Gospels and Torah and see Confirmation, Direction, and Clarity of the Word Of Allah.

Unfortunately, Mohammad never sent the message or command for anyone to preserve a single page of the Gospels nor the Torah.

The Sunni and Sufi Muslims do not really agree on worship techniques because The Torah clearly lays out all of Gods plans Prophecies and The Final Message is contained in the Torah and Gospels. This refusal and ignoring of the Torah and Gospels in preserving and maintaining them, have led to a complete breakdown in Islamic agreement on many things, creating strife and even violence.

The saddest thing for Muslims as a whole is the fact that Mohammad told them all that the Torah and Gospels were there for them to study and that His prophecy and revelations were confirmed BY The Torah and BY The Gospels. Everything that Mohammad revealed and prophecied as he received Spiritual revelations from Allah. But Muslims did not have any interest in Allah's word in neither the Torah nor the Gospels.

Muslims have lost or thrown away every single last page of the entire word of God before the seventh century. This has wrecked such tremendous havoc, devastation, destruction, damage, desolation, ruination and many other problems for Muslims worldwide.

The multiple sects of Islam is a very complicated matter with many Muslims borrowing many of the Ideas of their genetic brothers and relatives the Italian people The Roman Catholics of the Canaanite, Persian, Arabian / European neighbors in Italy { Italians } who have contributed influence and Catholic ideas that these Muslim sects have adopted somewhat into their versions of Islam. The Sufis who believe in wahdat al-wujood ( unity of existence) See The Creator that Has become a Part of His creation with everything that is created is also Allah.

Their Canaanite, Persian Arabian European neighbors called Italians have been able to pour and mix their own ideas into the sects of Islam as Roman Catholic Italian also profess to the same idea that Allah has placed Himself into a limited partial part of His creation.

As Roman Catholics - The Sufis also advocate extreme asceticism in this life and do not believe in taking the necessary means or in Jihaad, But for many other Muslims The Forgiveness of sins for Crusading / Jihaad and going to war is a common Canaanite, Persian, Arabian / European CATHOLISLAMIC commonality.:

Kill, Be killed and wage war, crush Your opponents and You will go to heaven and sins are forgiven. Roman Catholics and Muslims have capitalized on this idea for centuries with millions of CATHOLISLAMICs headed to heaven and closer to Allah by the methods of the battlefield and war.

As their Roman Catholic counterparts, The Sufis place Idol like pictures of their shaykhs in front of them when they are praying. Allaah wa Alhamdulillah wa Laa ilaaha illa Allaah wa Allaahu Akbar, and so on.

There is a history of Roman Catholics who have inflicted self-punishment and affliction and self-mutilation and torture upon their bodies such as St. Catherine of Siena wore sackcloth and whipped and beat herself three times daily in imitation of St. Dominic. In the early twentieth century, Roman Catholics also wore tight cords around their waists and flogged themselves with stinging nettles. Muslims and Catholics both share a world of
Mortification of the flesh.

We see that Some Sufis pierce themselves with rods of iron and there are many Muslims who beat themselves as their Italian bloodline relatives and neighbors have also done this for centuries. The pagan Roman Catholic festivals of celebrations of birthdays also has been adopted by Muslims.

In Egypt, The Sufis say they will mark the birthday of the Prophet Mohammed as they planned

The Sufis travel to visit graves and seek blessings from their occupants or to make tawaaf (ritual circumambulation) around them or to make sacrifices at these sites. The Sufis also do use talismans, letters numbers for making decisions and communicating with unseen forces in the spiritual world and make amulets and charms and spells.

All of these comparisons and similarities are very common into the Area. The Canaanite, Persian, Arabian Europeans of Italy { Roman Catholics } have contributed much to these various sects of Islam and The Prophet Mohammad has also contributed Revelations, Prophecies and Spiritual Messages to the Religion Of Catholicism. Itself. These vast number of people In and around Canaan are very related to one another and share a very vast religious aspect and even worship the very same exact god.

I believe that if Muslims could somehow locate and find the Torah and Gospels it would clear up everything and possibly reunite all Muslims and Roman Catholics back to their genetic roots of the land.

But according to Muslims, we have no idea what the Torah and Gospels have to say without the aid of the Quran and we have no idea what the Quran means without the Aid of the Torah and Gospels. This problem is created by the fact that Muslims did not preserve the Torah or The Gospels while today they claim that they have been corrupted.

I feel that if Muslims had preserved the Torah and Gospels and that there was agreement, I would fall to my knees and accept Islam and become a Muslim.

But I also know that Muslims did not preserve anything that existed before 700 AD. This will continue to be a problem but I hope that Muslims will someday work together to make the world around them a better place. God bless everyone.
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Hi dreamytrident

I read about half of your post and didn't recognise it at all as Islam that you was describing. I got the gist of what you were saying from a quick scan of your second half.

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) infact frowned upon and discouraged reading the Torah and Bible. Quran doesn't say at all to refer to those scriptures either.

There is no difference between Sufi and Sunni as both are basically the same with Sufi being the higher spiritual class of Sunni.

Wahdat al wujud is interpreted in a non-idolatrous way in Sunni Islam, it basically means that only God and his actions exist as creation is God's action of having created, but it doesn't regard the object of creation (the universe etc ) as being divine.

The non-Muslim 'sufis' have hijacked this term and put their own idolatrous interpretation to it

The Torah and Bible were distorted before the advent of Islam so they were never protected anyway and there is no command on Muslims to try protect them

The vast majority of Muslims (the Sunnis; sufis are part of Sunnis) are united on one Islam and that Islam consists of Quran and sunnah, not any borrowed teachings of other peoples

So your post referred to a different religion I'm afraid, not Islam! ☺
 
Arif Ghamiq said:
If everything is Decreed, then the ability of choice is included in that Decree.
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Of course when ability to choose is decreed, choosing the wrong is also decreed. Thats pre-ordainment too.

Arif Ghamiq said:
This is not an easy task and full understanding of these realities, in this world, is probably not possible; And Allah knows best. But we should, as Allah tells us in Quran, reflect upon the creation of the heavens and the earth - which us Muslims do not do nearly enough when it comes to this and many other Religious and Spiritual issues.
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Well friend, I can say just the same to convince myself about anything that doesn't make sense, not just about this issue. The verses we both quoted are clearly contradictory. Even to come to this point you have to reject all the related sahih hadiths including Bukhari. Thats sticky too.

Quran claims itself to be a clear book. Yet even for the most basic aspect of faith/deen such as this, why is it so difficult?
 
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Ahmad232 said:
The Prophet Muhammad (saw) infact frowned upon and discouraged reading the Torah and Bible. Quran doesn't say at all to refer to those scriptures either.
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Not sure about that because the prophet even took oath on the Torah once.
Doesn't that mean the Torah was not corrupted (at least during his lifetime)?

A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: Abul Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431). Hasan (Al-Albani)
Sunan Abi Dawud 4449 Book of Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
 
RogerBao said:
Not sure about that because the prophet even took oath on the Torah once.
Doesn't that mean the Torah was not corrupted (at least during his lifetime)?

A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: Abul Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431). Hasan (Al-Albani)
Sunan Abi Dawud 4449 Book of Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
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Prophet (saw) just confimed the original Torah is from Allah, and the stoning verse was still in it.

The Quran itself mentions that some rabbis have changed the words of the Torah with their own interpolations:

“Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75]

Qutaadah said: “The phrase ‘then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it’ refers to the Jews, who used to hear the words of Allaah, then they altered it after they had understood what it meant.”

Abu ‘Aaliyah said: “They took what Allaah had revealed in their Book describing Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and changed its meaning.” Ibn Zayd said: “The phrase ‘[they] used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it’ refers to the Tawraat which Allaah revealed to them; they changed it, making what it permitted forbidden, and what was forbidden allowed, changing the truth to falsehood and falsehood to truth…” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

https://islamqa.info/en/2001
 
wil said:
When we review the texts we have of ancient times, other than translations and updating to modern languages...we don't see the corruption that many like to claim.
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I agree, a great deal of "corruption" comes from translation. Also much of the depth found in the older languages, such as Hebrew & Arabic, is lost in translation, which further encourages simplistic & superficial interpretations, thereby discouraging abstract thinking when it comes to Religion.
 
RogerBao said:
Of course when ability to choose is decreed, choosing the wrong is also decreed. Thats pre-ordainment too.

Actually Science is moving toward the idea that conscious free-will is an illusion. This was pretty much started about 20 years ago by Thalia Wheatley and Dan Wegner. Now I don't believe free-will is an illusion, but I do believe it is illusory - just not what it seems to be on the surface.

A lot of what we believe are free-will choices, are actually predetermined (Pre-ordained/Qadar) responses, which many experiments have shown - as with the Yale study by Paul Bloom and Adam Bear. I don't think it will ever be proven that we have absolutely no free-will, because there is an element of free-will woven together with Pre-ordainment (predetermination). I think of in the way space and time are interwoven, which is another abstract concept that is hard to fully understand.

Well friend, I can say just the same to convince myself about anything that doesn't make sense, not just about this issue. The verses we both quoted are clearly contradictory. Even to come to this point you have to reject all the related sahih hadiths including Bukhari. Thats sticky too.

I can't say that about just anything, but when it comes to something as abstract & transcendent as Pre-Existence, such analogies are a must. It's like what Stephen Hawking said:

"To ask what happened before the Big Bang is like asking what happened on the surface of the earth one mile north of the North Pole."

I don't think it's so different when it comes to Pre-ordainment or the concept of Creator and the "beginning" of creation. Abstract thought is utilized in quantum physics as well as other things. How can we talk about and reflect upon things beyond our mudane experience and perceptions without abstract thought?

I certainly don't reject every Hadith that speaks on Pre-ordainment. The Quran speaks on it, as we have both quoted.

Quran claims itself to be a clear book. Yet even for the most basic aspect of faith/deen such as this, why is it so difficult?
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To me, it is very clear to me. The Quran (as with other texts) speaks on mundane matters as well as transcendental ones. It's not difficult, in that way, to me.

This might sound strange to you, but I wish more Muslims were as analytical about this subject as you are - I think it would result is Spiritual Growth. And Allah knows best!
 
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Well that looks off, wasn't trying to that - oh well it's all there ! Ha!!

It's like my quote is in with Roger's - how did I do that?!?
 
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Ahmad232 said:
Prophet (saw) just confimed the original Torah is from Allah, and the stoning verse was still in it.
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I find it strange Prophet Muhammad proclaimed"I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee." on a the corrupt physical copy of the Torah with him.
 
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