A question about sects

[RogerBao]

To me, it is very clear to me. The Quran (as with other texts) speaks on mundane matters as well as transcendental ones. It's not difficult, in that way, to me.

This might sound strange to you, but I wish more Muslims were as analytical about this subject as you are - I think it would result is Spiritual Growth. And Allah knows best!

Stephen Hawking doesn't claim to be God or any prophet. I understand pre-ordainment, creation & etc are abstract thoughts but The Quran claims to be the manual for mankind , the Only & Final Truth & calls all non-believers to its fold. This claim needs prove. Talking about clear Quran lets have a look at the verse itself

He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. (Quran 3:7)

Allah says:

1. I have given clear revelation but

2.No one can understand some verses except Me but

3. Some learned ones can understand them

Is this really God speaking to us?

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

This is absolutely Allah speaking to us.

The "men of understanding" is, in the language of Quran, the "Ulul Albaab" - meaning "Possessors of Deep Insight". Albaab is a plural form of Lubb - meaning "Inner Self", "Heart", "Middle Part", "Pulp", "Pith", "Core", "Mind", "Intelligence", "Pure", "Stainless", "Quintessence".

The root word is labba - meaning "to have a penetrative mind", "to be kind hearted", "to have deep understanding", "to have deep insight".

The Ulul Albaab are in touch with Al Lubb (The Inner Self) - they access their Core, they are centered, their inward mind is awake - conscious.

This is available to all people regardless of their education - no one is excluded unless they exclude themselves. Everyone has an Inner Self, a Core.

[Another interesting word from this root is Labeeb - "Gifted with sound judgement", "Assiduous"]

This is different from 'ulama - "learned ones" - those who have 'ilm (knowledge). A person can be a Possessor of The Inner Self, having Deep Insight, without any specific level of 'ilm (knowledge).

Clarity does not mean "simple" or "easy" - it takes some effort, from one's Self, to understand some of the deeper, more abstract - allegorical meanings of Quran.

 

[wil]

The Quran claims to be the manual for mankind , the Only & Final Truth & calls all non-believers to its fold

hmmm the bible doesn't?

Me thinks this is fairly common among religions...the thinking that their belief has all the answers and the world would be better if we all believed as I do (including the secular world) Surely you don't have some agenda against Islam on an interfaith board. (not accusing just clarifying)

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

Ya-know, I think it would be just a bit silly to believe in a Religion that you don't think is true.

 

[wil]

Ya-know, I think it would be just a bit silly to believe in a Religion that you don't think is true.

I don't know...all of our religions have issues, imo. They obviously can't all be right. Each sect, denomination breaks off because they have differences...

I still call myself a Christian and am willing to point out where I have issues...and wish there were a way to correct things... As I am sure you would love for there not to be stonings of women who are raped and blaming them rather than the rapist, or wish there weren't suicide bombers, or Imams preaching hate...that these things could be cleared from others thinking their thinking was the same as your thinking... I also fall under the umbrella of folks using the bible while burning crosses and swastikas... I'd sure like to distance myself from folks who use my 'book' for evil.

 

[RogerBao]

The Quran itself mentions that some rabbis have changed the words of the Torah with their own interpolations:

“Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75]

Btw, it is Allah whose through the prophets entrusted the Torah to the rabbis to protect it. Allah did not know better that they will corrupt it? Torah & Injil are Allah's Book, shouldn't the All Mighty Allah be able to protect them? If Allah failed several time, why not now too. In the same way, why do you think Quran is not corrupted too.

Verily, We did send down the Taurat (Torah) [to Musa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurat (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the Kafirun (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allah's Laws). (Quran 5 44)

 

[RogerBao]

This is absolutely Allah speaking to us.

The "men of understanding" is, in the language of Quran, the "Ulul Albaab" - meaning "Possessors of Deep Insight". Albaab is a plural form of Lubb - meaning "Inner Self", "Heart", "Middle Part", "Pulp", "Pith", "Core", "Mind", "Intelligence", "Pure", "Stainless", "Quintessence".

The root word is labba - meaning "to have a penetrative mind", "to be kind hearted", "to have deep understanding", "to have deep insight".

The Ulul Albaab are in touch with Al Lubb (The Inner Self) - they access their Core, they are centered, their inward mind is awake - conscious.

This is available to all people regardless of their education - no one is excluded unless they exclude themselves. Everyone has an Inner Self, a Core.

[Another interesting word from this root is Labeeb - "Gifted with sound judgement", "Assiduous"]

This is different from 'ulama - "learned ones" - those who have 'ilm (knowledge). A person can be a Possessor of The Inner Self, having Deep Insight, without any specific level of 'ilm (knowledge).

Clarity does not mean "simple" or "easy" - it takes some effort, from one's Self, to understand some of the deeper, more abstract - allegorical meanings of Quran.

So now your implying its just a language issue? "None knoweth its explanation save Allah" means what it means. Whats the point of Allah revelation then? Anyway , the Quran challenges that its not from God if you find contradictions in it. Just this verse is self-contradictory in many sense.

More contradictions;

And of the fruits of the date-palms and the grapes, whence you obtain intoxicating drink and wholesome food. Verily in that is a Sign for a people who use their understanding (Qur'an 16:67)

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper. (Quran 5:90)

One day wine is a Miracle of Allah for men, another day its Satan's handiwork. This is about the nature of wine and couldn't be more contradictory.

Also, this has nothing to do with the so called gradual prohibition Muslims like to espouse. Gradual prohibition could mean like e.g Allah was initially silent about it or asks to be measured when consuming wine then later prohibit it totally.

By the way, if wine is Satan's handiwork, why Allah offering wine as reward in the heaven? Is that Allah's paradise or Satans's paradise?

 

[RogerBao]

hmmm the bible doesn't?

Me thinks this is fairly common among religions...the thinking that their belief has all the answers and the world would be better if we all believed as I do (including the secular world) Surely you don't have some agenda against Islam on an interfaith board. (not accusing just clarifying)

The Bible does too, and I not a Christian too, and I'm posting about Islam in Islam section. tq

 

[wil]

The Bible does too, and I not a Christian too, and I'm posting about Islam in Islam section. tq

Are you a Muslim?

 

[Ahmad232]

I find it strange Prophet Muhammad proclaimed"I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee." on a the corrupt physical copy of the Torah with him.

He (saw) could have just meant that He believes in the original Torah and the original verses still in it.

I've read in Islamic sources that God sent new Messengers and guidance once the old ones were corrupted; they were meant to be corrupted too, so once the new updated guidance comes, people are meant to follow that and the old one will no longer be followable.

This would mean Torah was corrupted before Jesus (Pbuh) came with new guidance to the Jews

That hadith where Prophet (saw) said he believes in Torah while pointing to it? could have been said before the verses that says Jews added interpolations to the Torah were revealed.

The Quran is being divinely protected as there is no new Messenger coming to renew/update it and past revelations didn't have that divine protection so it makes sense too that since most Jews were corrupt (according to the Quran) that they would have corrupted both the Torah and Injel

 

[Ahmad232]

Btw, it is Allah whose through the prophets entrusted the Torah to the rabbis to protect it. Allah did not know better that they will corrupt it? Torah & Injil are Allah's Book, shouldn't the All Mighty Allah be able to protect them? If Allah failed several time, why not now too. In the same way, why do you think Quran is not corrupted too.

Verily, We did send down the Taurat (Torah) [to Musa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurat (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the Kafirun (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allah's Laws). (Quran 5 44)

This verse mentions that some Rabbis judged by the Torah, not all, as we've seen other verses say some Rabbis changed the words of Torah.

Yes previous generations we're entrusted with protecting their scriptures but one thing it don't mention is that God took it upon Himself to provide them scriptures protection as it says about the Quran:

Chapter (15) sūrat l-ḥij'r (The Rocky Tract)


Sahih International: Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.

Pickthall: Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.

What I meant in last post about, previous revelations are meant to be corrupted, fits into God's ultimate plan and predestination; Jews were entrusted with their protection but they never protected them; this ties in with God's predestination/master plan too; failures of people are used to benefit others such as them scriptures' corruption served to emphasise the sole validity of the new revelations

If previous revelations were successfully protected without divine intervention, there'd be no special need for divine protection of Quran will there?; Quran says that this community (I.e., followers of Muhammad saw) is the best of all other community's:

You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient. (3:110)

So if past nations were able to successfully preserve their books then this nation should have been able to do it all the more better and hence there would have been no need for divine protection , thus the special divine protection afforded to Quran shows that previous revelations were corrupted

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

So now your implying its just a language issue? "None knoweth its explanation save Allah" means what it means. Whats the point of Allah revelation then? Anyway , the Quran challenges that its not from God if you find contradictions in it. Just this verse is self-contradictory in many sense.

More contradictions;

And of the fruits of the date-palms and the grapes, whence you obtain intoxicating drink and wholesome food. Verily in that is a Sign for a people who use their understanding (Qur'an 16:67)

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper. (Quran 5:90)

One day wine is a Miracle of Allah for men, another day its Satan's handiwork. This is about the nature of wine and couldn't be more contradictory.

Also, this has nothing to do with the so called gradual prohibition Muslims like to espouse. Gradual prohibition could mean like e.g Allah was initially silent about it or asks to be measured when consuming wine then later prohibit it totally.

By the way, if wine is Satan's handiwork, why Allah offering wine as reward in the heaven? Is that Allah's paradise or Satans's paradise?

It's not a "language issue", but understanding the language might help you with the "clarity" you seem to appreciate so much.

The verse says "none knows the meaning except Allah and the Ulul Albaab (those with deep insight)". Why are you omitting that part of Quran?

The wine of Paradise is non-intoxicating, I'm not gonna bother quoted it because I know you had to of seen it when looking at the verses - you're omitting again.

I see absolutely nothing contradictory between 16:67 and 5:90 - I don't even see what you're saying there.

The realities of Paradise are spoken of metaphorically.

"The Mathal (metaphor, parable, similitude, allegory, likeness, example) of Paradise, which is promised to the righteous, is that rivers flow from beneath it. Its food is everlasting, as is its shade. This is the end of those who are righteous, and the end of the disbelievers is the Fire."
(13:35)

The process of wine - from seed to the wine & all the stages in between are used is Sufism a great deal to symbolize the unfoldment of Divine Revelation and Transformation. The seed being the time of Prophet Adam (as), germination in the time of Prophet Nuh/Noah (as) and so forth, until the Final Goal of the Final-Universal Messenger Muhammad (pbuh). Look this up, you may get something out of it - it is a popular analogy.

 

[RogerBao]

Are you a Muslim?

I'm from a mixed background and yes I do have Muslim relatives.

 

[RogerBao]

The Quran is being divinely protected as there is no new Messenger coming to renew/update it and past revelations didn't have that divine protection so it makes sense too that since most Jews were corrupt (according to the Quran) that they would have corrupted both the Torah and Injel

Your Islamic sources claim otherwise, like your prophet keep lapsing verses & his Companion admitting to the existence of surahs that are no longer in the Qur'an because they were forgotten.

'A'isha reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by a man in the mosque. Thereupon he said:
May Allah have mercy upon him; be reminded me of the verse which I had been made to forget.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 788 b The Book of Prayer - Travellers

Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said:
You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1050 The Book of Zakat

Now also look at verse 4 46:

Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe. (Quran 4 46)

Here Allah is accusing the Jews of corrupting the Book by displacing their words from their right location. Now answer , who gave the right to Uthman to juggle & change the location of the verses in the Quran as his wish instead of in accordance to sequence of revelation by Allah?

 

[RogerBao]

I see absolutely nothing contradictory between 16:67 and 5:90 - I don't even see what you're saying there.

In 16:67 Allah specifically name fruits & its wine as one of His miracles for mankind and in 5:90 , wine is Satan's handiwork & is as sinful as idolatry.
Nothing could be more contradictory.

The realities of Paradise are spoken of metaphorically.
"The Mathal (metaphor, parable, similitude, allegory, likeness, example) of Paradise, which is promised to the righteous, is that rivers flow from beneath it. Its food is everlasting, as is its shade. This is the end of those who are righteous, and the end of the disbelievers is the Fire." (13:35)

Allah in heaven is promising big breasted virgins, pearly boys, fruit, honey, milk, wine, clean water, gold bracelet, fine Persian silk (istabraq), couch, chicken meat & fine weather. These are nothing but enticement for the desert Bedoins of that time. (note: Istabraq is a luxury good of that time from Iran, its like God promising me Gucci today)

For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk ( transliteration: istabraq) and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on! (Qur'an 18:31)

(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)? (Qur'an 47:15)

Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 52:24)

In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;- (Qur'an 55:56)

And full-breasted [companions] of equal age (Quran 78 33)

(They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones), Reclining on them, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness), With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication: And with fruits, any that they may select: (21)And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,- Like unto Pearls well-guarded. (Qur'an 56:15-23)

And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk. (13)Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal,- Crystal-clear, made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes). And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil,- A fountain there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. (Qur'an 76:12-19)

 

[wil]

to which sect of Islam do you ascribe again Roger?

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

Surah 16:67 does not call anything a "miracle". Allah calls the fruits of the date palm and grapes, from which intoxicating drink and good things are derived, Ayaat ("Signs") - not "miracles".

Actually it's the dates and grapes that are called Ayaat ("Signs"), not the intoxicants or good things taken from them.

However, evil things can be Signs, such as Pharaoh - an Oppressor who rejected Allah and opposed His Messenger Musa/Moses (as). Pharaoh was made a Sign by Allah, saying:

"That you may be an Ayaat ("Sign")" 10:92 -
same word used in 16:67.

Ayaah is also used to refer to Quranic verses.

The drink of Paradise is not an intoxicating beverage.

Surah 37:45-47 says that those who drink of the pure drink of Paradise will have no ghul (confusion, headache or intoxication) nor will they have yunzafun (deprivation of senses)."

Surah 56:19 says they "have no yusadda'un (ache from it) or yunzafun (deprivation of senses)"

The word kawa'ib in 78:33 is from the same root as the Kaaba ("Cube") - the name of the cube shaped Sacred House in Mecca. The meaning is "to become prominent", "eminent", "to swell", "to be budding or blooming" as in a blooming young maiden "having large breast". "Big breasted women" is about the crudest direction one could go with this word, especially when referring to something as refined and symbolic as Paradise. I suppose one could make a connection to big boobs in relation to the Kaaba of one really wished to.

As for Hadith. Imam Bukhari, born in 194 A. H. (810), was a student of Hadith studying the teachings of Abu Hanifa (a founder of one of the four Schools of Thought - Sunni) in present day Uzbekistan. He collected together, in his research, many Hadith and judged some of them to be Sahih (Sound) - this was his opinion at the time and place in which he lived. This collection is called Sahih Bukhari. There is no reason to believe this collection, or any other collection, is perfect and flawless. The six collections (by different compilers) used by the Sunni, don't always agree. Neither do the four Madhahib of the Sunni Schools on specific issues - largely based on Hadiths from different transmissions.

The same is true for Al Kafi, a Shi'a collection of Hadith compiled by Kulayni (born 250 A. H. / 864).

There has been a thousand + years of accumulated knowledge and research since these Brothers did their work. They did the best they could with what they had - and they did a good job, but to simply accept whatever they judged to be an accurate (or Sound) Hadith as flawless, irrefutable truth doesn't make sense. I don't think they would expect that. Shi'a Scholars and Imams do not accept everything in Al Kafi, but they respect Kulayni's work.

 

[farhan]

He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. (Quran 3:7)

Allah says:

1. I have given clear revelation but

2.No one can understand some verses except Me but

3. Some learned ones can understand them

Is this really God speaking to us?

Clear revelations are about things that are practically implementable. These are the "mother of the book" (literal translation). Allegorical things are about the unseen. Those in whose heart is "perversity" (literal translation), follow the allegorical, seeking discord.

This verse might be talking about you.

 

[farhan]

Your Islamic sources claim otherwise, like your prophet keep lapsing verses & his Companion admitting to the existence of surahs that are no longer in the Qur'an because they were forgotten.

'A'isha reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by a man in the mosque. Thereupon he said:
May Allah have mercy upon him; be reminded me of the verse which I had been made to forget.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 788 b The Book of Prayer - Travellers

Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said:
You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1050 The Book of Zakat

Now also look at verse 4 46:

Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe. (Quran 4 46)

Here Allah is accusing the Jews of corrupting the Book by displacing their words from their right location. Now answer , who gave the right to Uthman to juggle & change the location of the verses in the Quran as his wish instead of in accordance to sequence of revelation by Allah?

Quran was both memorised and written. when one memorizes that much, there are chances of forgetting. None of these say they are no longer in the quran.

Where is the evidence of Uthman juggling verses?

 

[farhan]

So now your implying its just a language issue? "None knoweth its explanation save Allah" means what it means. Whats the point of Allah revelation then? Anyway , the Quran challenges that its not from God if you find contradictions in it. Just this verse is self-contradictory in many sense.

More contradictions;

And of the fruits of the date-palms and the grapes, whence you obtain intoxicating drink and wholesome food. Verily in that is a Sign for a people who use their understanding (Qur'an 16:67)

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper. (Quran 5:90)

One day wine is a Miracle of Allah for men, another day its Satan's handiwork. This is about the nature of wine and couldn't be more contradictory.

Also, this has nothing to do with the so called gradual prohibition Muslims like to espouse. Gradual prohibition could mean like e.g Allah was initially silent about it or asks to be measured when consuming wine then later prohibit it totally.

By the way, if wine is Satan's handiwork, why Allah offering wine as reward in the heaven? Is that Allah's paradise or Satans's paradise?

"From where you obtain intoxicants and also good/better food. Verily in that there is a sign....". Where does it say wine is a miracle of Allah?
Have you seen the alcoholic content of heavenly wine?