Are Christians Idol worshippers/polytheists

[ThankfulSlave]

Discuss

 

[BigJoeNobody]

I think you've been reading into too many of the online "Dawah" personalities. As a former Christian, I can tell you that 99% pf Christians I have ever met, consider there to be only 1 God, hence Monotheists. Their concept of 3 in 1 hinges on the idea that the 3 pieces are part of a whole (Think Body, voice, brain)

 

[ThankfulSlave]

Are they worshipping one God though? Is making God into three, or is claiming that a human is God not blasphemous?

 

[Thomas]

Are they worshipping one God though? Is making God into three, or is claiming that a human is God not blasphemous?

That's not what they're claiming. Two natures in one person, not one nature ...

 

[wil]

My mother calls me son, my sister brother, my daughter dad, my lover something else...we each have a different relationship, to each I am different... But I am only one entity.... Unless I am not?

Side note...blasphemous? In relation to Islamic teachings maybe...just as Islam is blasphemous in relation to christian teaching... Are you aware those Aussies that are upside down think they are right side up? Or that this is the Christian board!

 

[Devils' Advocate]

But I am only one entity.... Unless I am not?

Well, depends on what level you look. A case can be made that you are billions and billions of entities that make up Wil. None of the bits are you yet each bit is a part of you. The sum total of the bits are the you you (and the rest of us) can recognize as you in what we call our reality.

All the bits that are you were something else before they became you. All the bits that make up you now will go on to be bits in a gazillion other things when you are gone. We are all made of star stuff!

 

[wil]

We are.golden.... And then comes the multi verse...

But the earth is only a few.thousand years old...

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Are they worshipping one God though? Is making God into three, or is claiming that a human is God not blasphemous?

from an Islamic perspective, it seems troublesome. From a Christian perspective however, They see it as 1 entity, therefore no separation and without separation there is no polytheism. Most sects of Christianity don't even see Jesus as a Man, but rather God's manifestation, inseparable yet non encompassing the entire entity.

 

[Thomas]

Most sects of Christianity don't even see Jesus as a Man, but rather God's manifestation...

Ooh, really? That must be modern ones, or American ones? It's an old gnostic nostrum ...

 

[Devils' Advocate]

I was going to say! What little Catholicism teachings I got thru - he absolutely was a man. Now BJN mentioned Christians, no Catholics, and I have no clue what the various denominations of Christians believe in this regard.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Ooh, really? That must be modern ones, or American ones? It's an old gnostic nostrum ...

admittedly most of the people I know are Baptist and Methodist and such, but let me clarify. The Christians I've talked to don't view Jesus as a separate entity. His "flesh" and his "divinity" are all equal and same.

 

[ThankfulSlave]

I forgot that I had an account here lol.

So the Christians believe that God is one. The God head consists of three distinct personalities which have three distinct roles but are all co equal in essence?

I would say which ever way you spin it, it's still three God's. It's problematic because jesus said he's returning to his father, your father, his God and your God. Jesus said the true God in heaven. Jesus clearly had a God. Jesus was also subordinate to this God throughout the whole NT. As is the holy spirit who can only speak what God commands. So we have two thirds of three holy trinity who are subordinate to the father but Christians still claim all three are co equal?

It doesn't make sense which ever way you look at it. I have no problem when reading the Bible that the "father" is the true God and jesus was clearly his prophet/servant/messenger.

When you break up the one true God and start diving his being and essence into roles you fall into polytheism. The Jews will agree that this is blasphemous and idolatry. The moment you take an intermediary between you and God and start praying to the creator through another being you are being mislead.

The way I look at is Jesus along with all the other prophets prostrated to their lord and worshipped him alone. They prayed directly to him. Why can't we do the same?

 

[ThankfulSlave]

That's not what they're claiming. Two natures in one person, not one nature ...

So jesus had a human nature and a divine nature? So was Jesus aware that he was the almighty creator? And what points in the bible does his "divine nature" come out? Also what about the holy ghosts' nature. Christians claim jesus has two nature's and is God along with father, what about the holy ghost?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi TS,

Since you asked, I thought I’d give you the Theosophical interpretation of the Trinity. (I am a Theosophist.)

The “First Person” of the Trinity is Spirit and the “Second Person” of the Trinity is matter, although this is a type of matter that is at a higher level than the physical matter of the present universe. The “Third Person” of the Trinity is our present physical universe. (As Theosophy sees it, Jesus symbolizes the “Third Person” not the “Second Person”.)

Physical universes come and go. The symbolism of Mary giving birth to Jesus actually refers to the begging of our present physical universe. Many Theosophists see the historical Jesus as merely symbolizing our present physical universe, rather than being an actual deity.

“Above” these three “Persons” of the Trinity we have the Absolute, which is neither male nor female. The tree “Persons” of the Trinity are merely 'manifestations' of the Absolute.

I think this organization of ideas will give you answers to all of your questions.

 

[Thomas]

So the Christians believe that God is one.

Yes.

The God head consists of three distinct personalities which have three distinct roles but are all co equal in essence?

Yes.

I would say which ever way you spin it, it's still three God's.

LOL, No, really, it's not, but it is something to get the head around.

It's problematic because jesus said he's returning to his father, your father, his God and your God. Jesus said the true God in heaven. Jesus clearly had a God. Jesus was also subordinate to this God throughout the whole NT.

The Doctrine of the Trinity is founded on Scripture, it wasn't spun out of nowhere.

As is the holy spirit who can only speak what God commands.

No, not really. When the Holy Spirit speaks, it's God speaking. And remember, it's Christ who sends the Holy Spirit, but nowhere does Christ say the Holy Spirit is subordinate to Himself.

So we have two thirds of three holy trinity who are subordinate to the father but Christians still claim all three are co equal?

LOL, no. It rather seems as if you're basing your argument on a few selective texts, ignoring those which balance those texts.

What you're proposing is Monarchianism. It was an error dealt with in the 2nd century, but pops up every now and then (as errors tend to do).

Today Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and Unitarians tend towards monarchianism. Modal monarchianism was the error in assuming Father, Son and Holy Spirit are just modes of manifestation God, that is, that the Trinity is not simultaneous and separate persons but consecutive modes of the one nature.

It doesn't make sense which ever way you look at it.

And yet it makes sense to millions, nay billions, of Christians.

When you break up the one true God and start diving his being and essence into roles you fall into polytheism.

Quite. That's not what the Trinity is, that's why it's not polytheism.

Really it's no argument to say "It must be polytheism because I don't understand it."

 

[Thomas]

So jesus had a human nature and a divine nature?

Yes.

So was Jesus aware that he was the almighty creator?

Yes.

And what points in the bible does his "divine nature" come out?

All the way through the New Testament, and some might suggest implicit in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Also what about the holy ghosts' nature.

What about it?

Christians claim jesus has two nature's and is God along with father, what about the holy ghost?

One nature: Spirit.

 

[Thomas]

An afterthought ...

The Doctrine of the Trinity has been around for a long time now, and its theological/metaphysical/philosophical workings are pretty sound and watertight, really. So to argue that the Trinity is actually polytheism, or tritheism, etc., is a non-argument, really.

Better to say I don't believe it, rather than try and explain it away — you can't — any more than a Moslem will accept that the Prophet (pbuh) suffered illusions or that a Buddhist will accept that the Buddha was a naive optimist ...

 

[ThankfulSlave]

Well Jesus doesn't explicitly have to say "Holy spirit is lesser than me" for me to believe he is. Same way he doesn't explicitly claim to be God but Christians will still assert that he is.

There are many, many verses where Jesus makes it apparent that the father is greater than himself. As for the holy spirit, if he can't speak on his own accord (same as jesus) then he can't be God because God can't be told what to say. God commands his creation, he can never be commanded.

If the Christians were to claim the God head has a hierarchy then It would be easier for me to comprehend, but when you claim they are co equal, the Bible clearly states otherwise and it leaves me asking questions.

No the trinity does NOT make sense to everyone. You ask the laymen Christian and they will have a hard time explaining the trinity without slipping up. You ask a scholar and he will even have a hard time defending the God head if you were to ask certain questions or point to certain verses. DR James white who you're probably aware of said not everyone can grasp the concept of the trinity.

Maybe the unitarians, jehova witnesses and other heretic groups are closer to the truth. They read the same bible as you but do not see the concept of the trinity in the way you see it. Correct me if I'm wrong but is there a verse that explicitly describes the God head, except john 1:57 which is accepted to be a forgery.

These heretic groups will point to verses like this to disprove the trinity, there are more but I'll post this one

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[ThankfulSlave]

Thomas, when Jesus was unaware of the hour, that was surely his human nature speaking right? At what point does his divine nature appear and is there a verse in the bible that explains this. I'm not saying there isn't just asking

 

[Thomas]

Well Jesus doesn't explicitly have to say "Holy spirit is lesser than me" for me to believe he is.

No, He never does. What He says is "But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me." John 15:26.

Quite a dense verse, theologically speaking. But the Three are coequal in their Divinity. A thing is either divine or its isn't. It's like pregnancy, you either is, or you ain't.

There are many, many verses where Jesus makes it apparent that the father is greater than himself.

And verses where He makes it apparent that the relationship between the Father and Himself is not the same as the relationship between God and man.

One way of looking is Being, Consciousness, Life, or Being, Intellect and Will. Or to borrow from the Hindus, St-Cat-Ananda: Being, Consciousness, Bliss. But these are anthropomorphic analogies, they are not definitions.

Or another way:
There is you, and there is your consciousness of yourself. Now we can be mistaken about how we perceive ourselves, but that's not the case with God. God's self-awareness is no different to God's actuality.

To follow the anthropomorphic analogy. you have God Father, God the Son/Consciousness/Intellect/Logos, God the Life/Will/Love — three different, but all God, none greater, none lesser, being God, although logically God the Father preceeds the Son, and the Father and Son preceeds the Love that is between them, but actually the Three are One in that there is no temporal nor other 'delay' between the Three.

As for the holy spirit, if he can't speak on his own accord ...

Oh, I rather think He does. It's just that He does so anonymously. (The Acts of the Apostles is sometimes called the Gospel of the Holy Spirit.)

(same as jesus)

The Prologue of John?

then he can't be God because God can't be told what to say. God commands his creation, he can never be commanded.

We never said He is.

If the Christians were to claim the God head has a hierarchy then It would be easier for me to comprehend, but when you claim they are co equal, the Bible clearly states otherwise and it leaves me asking questions.

OK. But my point is, all those questions have been answered. And you can't have a hierarchy in God. You either is God, or you ain't. There's no Greater God and Lesser God. Just God.

No the trinity does NOT make sense to everyone. You ask the laymen Christian and they will have a hard time explaining the trinity without slipping up.

LOL. I have trouble explaining the Trinity without slipping up! That's my problem. I have no problem with my faith in the Trinity, however, I simply accept that the inmost workings of God will be, to some degree, a mystery.

You ask a scholar and he will even have a hard time defending the God head if you were to ask certain questions or point to certain verses. DR James white who you're probably aware of said not everyone can grasp the concept of the trinity.

Nor do they need to, really.

I know saints who's grasp of theology is tenuous at best.

Maybe the unitarians, jehova witnesses and other heretic groups are closer to the truth.

I doubt it, personally.

They read the same bible as you but do not see the concept of the trinity in the way you see it. Correct me if I'm wrong but is there a verse that explicitly describes the God head, except john 1:57 which is accepted to be a forgery.

The Prologue of John?

But the point here is the sacred scribes believed in the Trinity. St Paul's writings are Trinitarian. The theology of the Church from the beginning is Trinitarian. Christianity always was ... it's only later when man decides God must conform to his capacity to rationalise the Divine Nature that we get disputes.

Please realise that Scripture did not found the Tradition. The Tradition founded the Scripture.