My lack of Faith...

[Sayhellototheangels]

Faith. For me it's a strange thing. In this materialistic world we occupy, we crave things - latest fashions, cars, houses, money etc. For me the thing I crave most of all is faith. It's something I've never really had.

I was raised Catholic. I undertook all my sacraments and was brought up with a set of morals defined by the wider Christian/abrahamic religions. Christianity wasn't something I chose, it ultimately, was merely something that happened to me.

The strange thing is, I have this strong religious background but I lack faith. It's something I wish I had - an almost comfort blanket for the things I think and feel inside about the wider world and this amazing universe we find ourselves in. I feel like I've missed out, but there are just some things that I cannot let myself follow.

By in large I am not a bad person. I live a life based on rights and wrongs and happily treat people well, with no expectation of reward. I am not perfect, I make many mistakes, I do hurt people from time to time, but I am quick to learn and apologise. To Er is human and all that.

The biggest issue I have is with the bible. Itself is a contradiction - not for contradictory content (of which there is some) but the fact that it's written by man. Let me explain. God, no matter what faith you are, is perfect. No one else is perfect, no one is even close to it. Infact God is so perfect we can't even comprehend how perfect God is. Man is flawed. There's so much flaw in man it's borderline ridiculous. This is where my issue comes into play. The Nobel is made up of different books, gospels etc we are taught it is the word of God but it's been written by imperfect man, once more translated by more imperfect men, and further edited imperfect men! So my issue is that there are all these imperfections trying to piece together a picture of something perfect. It's like a thousand piece jigsaw with 200 pieces missing - you get the jist of what's there, but ultimately the complete picture could have a detail we've missed! It's just not something that I can openly accept. And it makes me sad that I can not.

Every so often I imagine myself coming face to face with God - at the pearly gates, in my living room, during the rapture - whatever it may be. I must stress that during these imaginative meetings I am by no means comparing myself or deeming myself worthy of an audience with God, but as a tool for me to work out my faith or there lack of. Anyway in these meetings with God I try to imagine the conversation, how it develops, things that could be said, how I'd defend or explain my lack of faith, how could God respond etc.

The most common imaginative meeting I have with God is one where I am across from him/her. Nothing more than a distorted image. God doesn't say anything, just looks toward me (How can a feeble minded man of flesh imagine how God looks or sounds or could respond). The best way I can describe it is like a really important and intimidating job interview, where your new boss says nothing, but an overwhelming silence and crushing awkwardness pushes you to blabber on. Anyway in these conversations I explain myself. I explain that while I don't have faith in the traditional sense, I have it in a way that still celebrates everything that God is supposed to have created. I find the earth mind blowing beautiful - I respect it. I'm overwhelmed by the whole mystery of space and time, constantly wonder about what's up there and what's making it all work. I love the people close to me. The ability to feel and celebrate that is awesome. I'm grateful for being able to feel and experience all of these incredible things - but I ultimately have issue with how to celebrate it. If God is all his/her infinite wisdom (and we can't even comprehend infinity!) did all of this stuff for us, then why do we need to prepare ourselves for a life beyond this realm. Surely what we have here, the things we are allowed to feel and do, are a reward in itself!?

It's like an artist hanging the most incredible painting ever created in a gallery, but telling you 'nah don't look at that, wait till you see what I've got next - but you need to queue up first and not act like a total muppet before you can see it'. Where's the sense in it!? It makes no sense. Is there a sin in enjoying what opportunity was put before us? Or have we to follow the carrot on the stick, making sure we behave or risk being beaten by the stick? Nothing about it seems fair or makes any sense which is where my lack of religious devotion comes back. Rules.

Rules, written by man for us to blindly follow under the thinly veiled guise of faith. Particularly now, I struggle to accept the pure and good intentions of mankind. Everything has an agenda. We are ultimately horrible to each other (on a wide scale) are these the rules I want to follow? This has been the case all through history. So why would I opt to follow the rules of a very imperfect mankind?

Going back to my imaginary conversation I explain all of this. I explain that I, frankly, think it's bullshit and if God wants to punish me for loving outside of wedlock, for enjoying this incredible planet, supporting same sex relationships then go ahead and punish me. Hypocrisy being, in my eyes, the greatest sin of all and one we are all guilty of! I don't imagine any further of the conversation with God. How could I?

Faith at this point for me becomes a hypocrisy. I'm a hypocrite for wanting it, and I'm a hypocrite if I suddenly decide I have it. It makes no sense and I am confused by it all. No more than ever have I ever wanted a bit of faith - there's so much going on in the world, and I really believe we're headed into a point of no return. If not by global war, than definitely by climate change.

Then again maybe faith is the reason we're in this mess to begin with....

So the question is, what do I do?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Hello and welcome. Awesome first post! There are individuals on this site who are far better prepared to answer your question than I. As my response is probably going to be outside the norm. With that in mind, faith. It is a peculiar thing. For faith, to me, is a belief that is not backed by knowledge. One cannot think harder and harder to get to faith.

Faith is more of the heart. And by that I mean an emotional state. As opposed to an intellectual one. Faith is an emotional state of strength. Faith is a connection with the infinite in whatever form that works for you. Gods are Gods. And religions are religions. The former, if they exist, are beyond our ability to comprehend. Religions are human constructions created to attempt to connect to that which is not comprehensible.

Of course, many here will disagree with me about this separation of Gods and their religions, and hopefully they will give you their thoughts from their point of view.

From my perspective though, I believe that is possibly the key to unlock the division you feel within you. Let me know what you feel!

 

[wil]

G!d doesn't want to punish you....the hypocrites do.... struggle with this if it makes you feel better....but I believe your time of understanding will come...

It will come from events in your life that make you go aha! Or AWE!... so live your life to the fullest..within your moral ethical framework...and the next step will reveal itself in its own time...

Until then revel, in your experiences, reading and contemplation with enjoyment, wonder and contemplation!

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Hi there Sayhellototheangels! Great user name. It's really tough to overcome bad experiences where religion is concerned. I can't offer you much advice, but I will share something with you from my late father-in-law that has always brought me solace.

"Faith in God lie not in the words of man, but is born unto you and is contained in your heart."​

 

[Sayhellototheangels]

That's the thing! And you have all touched on it, my faith is in my connection I have with the world, how I feel when I look up to the stars and read about the cosmos, or the feeling I have when I'm with my loved ones. So that connection I do feel I have in abundance.

However, maybe I am mixing up the very idea of faith and belief. Maybe I struggle to believe in the things that I have read or been taught, but ultimately have faith in the connection I have with the world.

It's something I often struggle to comprehend, and despite the university education, wealth of books etc it is something I don't ever think I'll truly understand. I write a lot of this ad hoc, and writing this has made me think that if I can never truly understand how can I completely appreciate? And if I can't completely appreciate the connection I feel I have in the aforementioned can I really call that faith?

It's such a minefeild. Every time I dive into my thoughts on the subject, 10 more questions arise. What is clear though, the love I have for this earth, the people around me, (most of) mankind, the universe has nothing to do with organised religion. Although strangely I still feel as if I'm missing out on that. While organised religion is not for me, I'd like to make it completely clear that I do not think less of those who do follow/practice. As mentioned in my OP I do feel as if it's something that's missing.

NJ, that quote is interesting because for me, what makes a good person, a good person; is the feeling you have contained in your heart. That feeling of appreciating the life you live - maybe that's a kind of love for God?

Wil, I do like to live my life as full as I can, not to the detriment on others. I've been lucky enough to see a good portion of the world and that experience every time, leads me to contemplation.

DA, it's the separation of the intellect/logic with the emotional I think I struggle with most. To paraphrase Douglas Adams (same initials...) Man thought they were the greatest creatures on earth, because they built, created etc. Dolphins on the other hand thought they were the greatest because they did none of that...

 

[Thomas]

Hi Sayhellototheangels —

(As the trad. catlick here, I suspect certain parties are waiting for me to pitch in. I shall, but right now will be just a light touch as I don't have time to respond to your post as it deserves )

For me the thing I crave most of all is faith. It's something I've never really had.

D'you pray for it?

The strange thing is, I have this strong religious background but I lack faith. It's something I wish I had - an almost comfort blanket for the things I think and feel inside about the wider world and this amazing universe we find ourselves in. I feel like I've missed out, but there are just some things that I cannot let myself follow.

It may well be that you have it, but you're wrestling with it ... ?

The biggest issue I have is with the bible... Itself is a contradiction ...

Maybe it might be worth changing at how you look at it.

In the Catholic Tradition, we don't treat the Bible as the inerrant word of God:

Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted.(Dei Verbum, III, 11)

The way I read it is as the testimony of the witnesses, written under Divine Inspiration indeed, but written by men from the certainty of their faith.

People like to make much of the 'contradictions' and if you check round the web, I'm pretty sure there are more contradictions than there are dictions, if you see what I mean. But none are irresolvable, and by far the most are due to lack of insight or understanding.

But my main point would be that while I am faced with critics of every ilk, that same Scripture has been entirely sufficient for saints, mystics and sages down through time. It has inspired great art, great music, great literature, soon the one hand I am faced with those who would reduce it to nothing, and on the other by those who have made their mark on the world ...

The critic leaves me with nothing. Their argument turns everything to ash. And then I read some of the great commentaries, and the writing is sublime ...

Every so often I imagine myself coming face to face with God - at the pearly gates, in my living room, during the rapture - whatever it may be.

Ah, then you do pray. Useful.

I must stress that during these imaginative meetings I am by no means comparing myself or deeming myself worthy of an audience with God...

Good ... but nevertheless God is there, and listens. You are His creation, why would He not listen?

The best way I can describe it is like a really important and intimidating job interview, where your new boss says nothing, but an overwhelming silence and crushing awkwardness pushes you to blabber on.

I know that feeling!

... I find the earth mind blowing beautiful - I respect it. I'm overwhelmed by the whole mystery of space and time, constantly wonder about what's up there and what's making it all work. I love the people close to me. The ability to feel and celebrate that is awesome. I'm grateful for being able to feel and experience all of these incredible things - but I ultimately have issue with how to celebrate it. If God is all his/her infinite wisdom (and we can't even comprehend infinity!) did all of this stuff for us, then why do we need to prepare ourselves for a life beyond this realm. Surely what we have here, the things we are allowed to feel and do, are a reward in itself!?

Here is where I would like to talk in greater depth and detail, and this is the ground where misunderstanding can occur, so I will talk about this, if you want, another time.

What I will say is that a fellow here by the name of Wil has taken great pains and shown great patience in dealing with me, and trying to get across a rather 'interesting' version of Christianity and indeed Catholicism as it manifests in the US.

So before I go any further, I'd like to ask, are you American? I ask only because if you say yes, it does have a bearing not on your experience, but elements of weighting of the exposure/education.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Sayhellototheangels —

Once again you touch on something that I think is really relevant, so even though I said I don't have time now, I will take time for this ...

Straight off — I feel as you do about the world. I live in London, which is light-bound. My late father-in-law lived in Norfolk, and enjoyed some degree of darkness. Whenever we go to visit, the first night, if its clear, I'm out standing in the field, looking up in the sky. I spent one night on a blanket, just looking up ... don't lose that sense of wonder ... I think the trick is to apply it in another area ...

Consider, for a moment ...

... how I feel when I look up to the stars and read about the cosmos, or the feeling I have when I'm with my loved ones. So that connection I do feel I have in abundance... the love I have for this earth, the people around me, (most of) mankind, the universe has nothing to do with organised religion.

You're right, it hasn't. That's not what religion is. That's not what religion is about. People have those same feelings, and are utterly agnostic, atheist, even irreligious ... they're not wrong, it's just they're not a statement of faith.

Having said that, where those feelings rise from may well be profoundly religious, or spiritual if that term offends, (the two are the same thing in my book). I would not take those feelings away, and really my comment would be 'Good. Then bank those. They're in your back pocket. Now let's look at not the feelings, but the gap you speak of, the lack of feeling, and how can we get some of that same feeling there ... or if you look at those feelings as a spring bubbling up, how can we get the spring to bubble in what is, at the moment, an empty well ... which is really no great problem, as the well itself is the hard bit. The feeling is love.

I mean, you could have said, "I was raised a Catholic, but •••• that!" But you didn't ...

So there's hope yet my son cool, but for the meantime, down and give me twenty! (Glory be's, that is, obviously! )

 

[wil]

I find there is a distinct difference to what raises.catholic....went to Catholic school...and studying Catholic theologians in a place of higher learning...

In soooo many religions giving up the elementary school teachings would benefit not only the religion, but.the child.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Hello!
I won't be offering any advice to you, for I also lack faith. But I do wish to offer you welcome. I like the people here and I hope they can help you find some way to move forward.

 

[StevePame]

Welcome, SayHello!

 

[Thomas]

In soooo many religions giving up the elementary school teachings would benefit not only the religion, but.the child.

Mixed opinions on that one. Elementary school teaching would be better if the standard of teaching was better, it's the teacher, not the subject.

My secondary education at a Catholic school was next-to-useless.

I was much like Sayhellototheangels by the time I left school. Went through college. Got a job. Got into 'an esoteric organisation' (read 'cult'). Did a few years in that, then got out.

Then discovered the Sophia Perennis, and that changed everything ...

 

[EdgyDolmen]

Welcome "Sayhello..." I believe you have chosen a great place to advance your quest. I feel somewhat differently than many. For your benefit and due to the nature of your search I will reserve my opinion. I look forward to your posts. Good luck...

 

[Sayhellototheangels]

I don't think I expected the amount of replies, nevermind the detail of the reply or most importantly the different things to consider. They will definitely be marbling through my thoughts over the coming months.

A few asked about my education. I was born and raised in Glasgow. My heritage is Irish and Italian - making me a hyper Catholic hybrid... Anyway! I attended a catholic primary school and a catholic secondary. Those who know of the history of Glasgow will know that it's a city divided between Catholic and Protestants. It's a great city but there is a deep rooted and institutionalised sectarianism. The difference between getting a job or not can be giving the correct answer to 'what school did you go to?' Or 'what team do you support' - Glasgow's two football (soccer) teams Celtic and Rangers being associated with Catholics and Protestants. For those who don't know give 'Old Firm Rivalry' a quick google - that's what it kind of means to be a catholic (or at least raised Catholic) in Glasgow/Scotland. At points, during 'Old Firm' weekends, and the 'Glorius 12th' you'd think Glasgow was Belfast.

This wretched foundation might have something to do with how badly religion/faith is taught in schools. And perhaps the knock on effect of this is the predicament I find myself now. I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

One thing That has sprung to mind while reading your replies is the very definition of 'Faith'. Is the emptiness really a lack of a belief structure that I'm confusing with faith? Is faith that feeling of wonder I have - does that actually need to be tied down to a personified God? One thing I have found though is that I will always be a curious fellow!

 

[Devils' Advocate]

However, maybe I am mixing up the very idea of faith and belief.

It really seems to me that this is the crux. Faith is emotion, belief is intellect. From what little you have written, it seems to me you have faith aplenty. You made it clear in your first post, and even clearer in the second that the feeling is there within you. You mention that the feelings you have have nothing to do with organized religion. With apologies to Thomas I do believe your feelings about faith are not any different from any other feelings. According to Mr. Dictionary, faith is kinda defined as belief. Look up belief and it is kinda defined as faith! Seems rather circular. Not particularly helpful.

If faith is emotion, as I have suggested, then faith (feelings) can be secular or religious. I would suggest they are actually both at the same time. It doesn't seem that there is any gap in your feelings. They seem well centered and free flowing. "The Faith is Strong in This One"! (Said in deep baritone voice of James Earl Jones).

It is the belief part that is tripping you up. You look at all that you have been taught, all that you have read, and you look at the world around you and they just do not match, do they. This seems to me to be the source of your difficulty. Religious and spiritual paths are often the same thing; they don't have to be though. There is a spiritual path outside of, and separate from, religion.*

From several remarks it seems to me you might be more on a spiritual, nonreligious road. If the belief (intellect) is more the issue, it may be a time to start pondering what belief actually means to you rather than what it is supposed to mean to you. Thoughts?

*In the time for full disclosure department, if it seems that I speak more from the outside of religion that is because my belief is Deist rather Theist. What does that mean? In a nutshell, there are no gods; rather all reality combined is god. There is no separate entity called god who speaks to us from a far off place. God is the universe. You are god, I am god, that rock is god, etc., etc. God is Us.

So if you are looking for a more theological centered answer, I'm not the right guy for you.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

One thing That has sprung to mind while reading your replies is the very definition of 'Faith'. Is the emptiness really a lack of a belief structure that I'm confusing with faith?

I think you hit the nail on the head. One of the things that most struck me about your opening post was the amount of faith expressed in it. I kept thinking to myself, "This guy's a solid believer, why does he think he has no faith?" Then it accrued to me perhaps it's not faith in God you lack, but faith in whatever religious structure you've been exposed to. That's left a sour taste in the mouths of many, but that doesn't mean you lack faith.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Sayhello ...

DA has it:

It really seems to me that this is the crux. Faith is emotion, belief is intellect.

From my (our) traditional perspective, belief is an operation of the intellect, faith is an operation of the will, but it's exactly what DA is talking about.

(Thanks for the background, btw. As a Londoner, of Scots-Irish descent, I know what you're talking about, although that kind of partisan affiliation never really took root this far south of the border!)

I agree with DA, NJ, etc. It seems clear to us it's not so much a lack of faith, but a lack of a framework on which to identify the faith that rises within you.

That's a tough one, and now really I'd say you're talking about a type of spirituality.

Or put another way, when I left the Church in my late teens, the struggle with faith didn't stop, it just took me in different directions. Some useful, some not so useful. My view was that Christ was just a wise teacher, a clued-up kinda guy, someone who performed wonders in a world where wonders happened. But Christ still nagged. I tried to become a Zen Buddhist, but knew enough to realise that wasn't gonna happen. It was just a panacea.

When I discovered metaphysics, and from there what I would call 'authentic esotericism' as opposed to the ersatz stuff that lines the New Age shelves of bookshops (I haunted Watkins bookshop in central London) I found the keys with which I could unlock the Christian Mysteries, that is a language and a way of looking that made sense of what I was feeling. An intellectual discourse that matched the sense of the spiritual that was nagging at me.

From there I could build an intellectual framework that enabled me to put my faith into words, a meaningful way to ponder the Christian Mysteries, and that led me straight back to the Church. (I walk the line between Catholic and Orthodox, in that I refuse to accept any real difference between the two, other than politics.)

It's the language of the Patristic Fathers, the common heritage of East and West, that speaks to me and lights up my soul.

But that's me ...

The problem for the west is that we are so damned rational which wouldn't be a problem if we weren't so short-sighted — it's that which holds us back this side of the veil, because in the end we can't rationalise your way to what we're looking for, it's just a prop ... at some point we're gonna have to make a leap in the dark, we gonna have to go beyond ourselves, where the will hopes, and the intellect is blind ...

To paraphrase 1 Corinthians 1:22-25
"... the will requires seeks wonders, and the intellect seeks wisdom: but the Transcendent is unto the (human) will a stumbling block, and unto the (human) intellect, foolishness ... yet the Transcendent is the Power that moves the will, and the Wisdom that illuminates the intellect... "

 

[Namaste Jesus]

God is the universe. You are god, I am god, that rock is god, etc., etc. God is Us.

That's actually not all that far off from the way I believe. The only exception being for me the universe is a reflection of God rather than actually being God. I'm a reflection, you're a reflection, that rock is a reflection, all we see is a reflection.

 

[wil]

Be still....and know that I am God ...

 

[Thomas]

Be still....and know that I am God ...

The exhortation to meditation ... good advice.