God Did Not Write the Bible

Yes. Thank you, wil.

And the Catholic Bible contains several extra 'apocriphal' books not included in other Bibles, along with extra material included in the Book of Daniel, for instance.

Some later books, like Maccabees, often deliberately imitate the style of more ancient Bible books, in an effort to play to the idea of Divine interference/assistance in various battles, etc.

Like any histories, the Biblical accounts are probably coloured by those who wrote them.

Also, as with Confucianism -- which is essentially a 'watering down' of pure Taoism to become a sort of family moral code -- parts of the Bible may perform this 'cosy' function of the pure, undiluted 'inner teaching' which may be too rigorous for the ordinary, average family person?

Does it all matter? When one line of the Bible may be all it takes?
 
Last edited:
It's a personal relationship with God, and a personal response from God that alone matters -- to which perhaps all Scripture points the way?
 
Nero was already persecuting Christians within 20 years of Jesus death. That is definitely documented. It seems a short time for a false cult to have grown around a Jesus who never actually really even existed -- but for whom many were prepared to suffer and die?
 
Also, as with Confucianism -- which is essentially a 'watering down' of pure Taoism to become a sort of family moral code
Not going to pursue this since it's off topic, but generally Taoism is seen as a counter movement to Confucianism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
Not going to pursue this since it's off topic, but generally Taoism is seen as a counter movement to Confucianism.
Really? I always believed Taoism far more ancient than old long-moustaches' comments -- on the I Ching, for instance.

But I suppose the point is that a religion can perhaps loosely be thought of as the wider social/moral application of the pure teachings of the Master to his close disciples?
 
Last edited:
... thousands of years old attempts at understanding the physical world using thousands of years old understandings...this why they don't stand the light if today.
Ahem ... Perhaps ... maybe ... it's you reading the book the wrong way? I don't see any attempt to explain the physical world. No traditional Jewish commentary says it does. Noe does any commentary suggest the New Testament explains the physical world. I don't know where this fixation comes from ... ?

This last third was composed of books that were selected out of the hundreds ...
Hundreds? :rolleyes: Really? Where did you get that figure from?

that were being circulated at the time
Can you point to a list of these hundreds?

So they selected a few hundred years after Jesus...
Wrong. Paul's epistles were in circulation within a couple of decades ... and we have roughly the NT canon by 200AD, which means that's the first written evidence, of a list that might well have been accepted a hundred years before that.

selections of writings spanning a thousand years...
Oooh no. Tut-tut.

Oh dear Wil, I'm gonna have to ask for evidence or reasoning of those statements.
 
Not going to pursue this since it's off topic, but generally Taoism is seen as a counter movement to Confucianism.

This is true. However, Taoism absorbed some lessons (because of their easy-going nature, they tend toward syncretism) of Mohism and Confucianism. Speaking frankly, way more of Mohism than Confucianism though.

Back to topic, the Bible does have some inspiration material from Egyptian monotheism and from Babylonian work. And modern Catholicism is heavily influenced by the church interaction with Roman paganism (statues of saints, the belief that grace is earned, and some of the more sketchy beliefs). This is one of these unavoidable things.

God doesn't tend to write books. God inspires through us. Religious people who have an encounter with God write books about God. Not God. In fact, if God had written the Bible, it would be a piece of third-person narcissism. 1/3 of the Bible or more refers to the direct actions of God, so he cannot be the author without this being self-aggrandizing.
 
Oooh no. Tut-tut.

Oh dear Wil, I'm gonna have to ask for evidence or reasoning of those statements.
1400 BC - 90 AD/CE. Yeah I said thousands...over a thousand good enough? Long time for a book to be written ... Even a compilation.
Wrong. Paul's epistles were in circulation within a couple of decades ... and we have roughly the NT canon by 200AD, which means that's the first written evidence, of a list that might well have been accepted a hundred years before that.
The plain fact of the matter is that the canon of the Bible was not settled in the first years of the Church. It was settled only after repeated (and perhaps heated) discussions, and the final listing was determined by Catholic bishops. This is an inescapable fact, no matter how many people wish to escape it.... http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...ed-before-the-church-councils-that-decided-it

Hundreds? :rolleyes: Really? Where did you get that figure from?

Can you point to a list of these hundreds?
Lol... A list of these hundreds...some new ones were just discovered as DSS and at nag hamadi...obviously most of.the books dissaoeared when the canon was created... Obviously our most prolific bible author Paul, wrote a lot more letters that weren't determined to be worthy, but were widely read by the churches they were sent to... This list is only gospels that didn't make it...(of course I am not including the later books that were written after the council canonized, since our Bible is a.closed canon and not an open one. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gospels
 
1400 BC - 90 AD/CE.
OK. Just wanted to clarify ...

The plain fact of the matter is that the canon of the Bible was not settled in the first years of the Church.
No it wasn't.

It was settled only after repeated (and perhaps heated)... (Objection, your honour! Sustained: Please don't project onto the evidence) ... discussions, and the final listing was determined by Catholic bishops.
Depends who you mean by Catholics, and when ... the Canon was not dogmatically ratified until the 16th century, and only then because Luther tossed the books that didn't agree with his theology. However, the Muratorian Fragment (c155-200AD) lists the NT, minus a couple, plus a couple: Matthew, James, 3 John are missing, but we pretty well know Matthew was there because Papias mentions it earlier.

As we share the same Canon as the Orthodox Patriarchies, we can pretty well assert it wasn't decided by 'Catholic bishops' (bit of surematism on that site).

It's quite likely the Canon would never have been dogmatically ratified by the Catholic Church if the Reformation hadn't argued the validity of the books that were selected as canonical.

But the Canon ratified by the Fathers was, I'm pretty sure, the one that had been in place for a thousand years. The canon in use by the Fathers from the very beginning is pretty much the canon we have today.

The article you cite mentions Hippo and Carthage in the 4th century – there was no 'Catholic Church' as such in those days, just the Church which was catholic and universal — the pope wasn't at the synods, I don't think. The crucial schism between Greek East and Latin West was a long way off ...

Lol... A list of these hundreds...some new ones were just discovered as DSS and at nag hamadi...obviously most of.the books dissaoeared when the canon was created...
Objection! Sustained: we don't know how many books 'disappeared', and there is a sort of conspiracy tendency to assume the church went round burning books left right and centre ...

Obviously our most prolific bible author Paul, wrote a lot more letters that weren't determined to be worthy...
Did he? Like what?

... This list is only gospels that didn't make it...
Would you have us accept every book that turns up calling itself scripture to be canonical?

Well if we take the DSS to be 1000, 40% of them are copies of Hebrew sacred texts, and another 30% are sectarian texts under the Jewish umbrella. That's 700 of the thousand. The remaining 300 are non-canonical books from the 2nd Temple Period ... and as far as I know there's nothing there to make the Jews break out in a sweat.

The Nag Hammadi Library consists of a collection of works, fifty-two Gnostic-y treatises, three works belonging to the Corpus Hermeticum and a partial translation/alteration of Plato's Republic.

The find raised particular excitement about secret gnostic societies and a Dan-Brown type discovery that would upset the institutional Catholic/Orthodox applecart ... it didn't. I don't think any scholar would argue that any book should be included in the Canon. It's all public domain, and there's nothing there, really, to cause a fuss.

Really, the orthodox cannot win. If we allow all books in, we're ridiculed for showing no insight, discretion, lack of scholarly savvy, but if we toss books out, then we're being selective, self-serving, etc. It's very easy to criticise, it's a lot harder to offer a reasoned alternative.

Then, on top of that people like your good self dismiss books that all scholars accept, on the grounds that they're written to put forward a personal agenda, etc., grind personal axes, etc., etc. and are therefore unreliable and are not something to place your faith in or build it on.

So I tend to dismiss all this kind of stuff as blowing smoke.

A lot of fuss about nothing.
 
Last edited:
There's a lot of Apocrypha. There are stories that have Pontius Pilate being baptized. There's a lot of stuff. The bad thief escaping death and being baptized. Ridiculous stuff. The Church had to choose. The Apocrypha are available to study.

The Vatican library probably preserves a lot more. Someone really interested would be able to request to study them, probably?

It's probably not a conspiracy to conceal stuff. The Catholic Bible contains books not thought reliable enough for inclusion in the King James. Some, like the 'Book of Wisdom', are really a bit mundane, compared to Psalms and Proverbs etc. Imo.

I think it's out there if you really want to look for it.

The obvious suspect 'Gospel of Judas':

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
 
Last edited:
There's a lot of Apocrypha...
You betcha.

When there's talk about the authorised canon, then critics will cite all manner of reasons, some valid, some not so, to dispute their authenticity, reliability, veracity, etc., etc. The canon has to jump through hoops.

When it's the apocryphal texts, gnostic documents, etc., then there's nowhere near the same degree of critical inspection. It's just the nature of the game, really.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
Back
Top