What was the livelyhood of Jesus and his near fellows?

Samana Johann

Samana Johann

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My person never really asked or researched of how Jesus supported his life in regard of food, clothes, housing and medicin and which lifelyhood his near fellows followed.

Are their evidences about it?

Are there maybe also suggestions in the teachings of this religion in regard of livelyhood for "priest" or those who sacrify their whole live to walk a spirituell path as well as for "ordinary" people, people holding on a household?
 
I don't think it is speculation...one WAS a fisherman, one WAS a tax collector... They all lived off the bounty of their followers and benefactors, there was no talk of striving to stay fed or clothed...knew where to get lodging and even a donkey to ride in on.
 
wil said:
I don't think it is speculation...one WAS a fisherman, one WAS a tax collector... They all lived off the bounty of their followers and benefactors, there was no talk of striving to stay fed or clothed...knew where to get lodging and even a donkey to ride in on.
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I do recall Thomas telling me some disciples may have had a good business going. "And immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants and followed him" (Mark 1.20).
 
And how about Jesus him self?

My person wonders then where the Vita apostolica comes from. Could find such in Matthäus 10,5-15. A commantd that nobody followed right from the beginning, never had been done by one self or simply got lost?

https://www.bibleserver.com/index.php?ref=Mt10%2C5–15&trl_desig=EU&language=de&gw=go said:
Steckt nicht Gold, Silber und Kupfermünzen in euren Gürtel.
10 Nehmt keine Vorratstasche mit auf den Weg, kein zweites Hemd, keine Schuhe, keinen Wanderstab; denn wer arbeitet, hat ein Recht auf seinen Unterhalt.
11 Wenn ihr in eine Stadt oder in ein Dorf kommt, erkundigt euch, wer es wert ist, euch aufzunehmen
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In short: don't accept money (gold,silber...), do not store e.g. to live hand-to-mouth, no secound clothes, no shoes, do stick... "because one who work has the right for being maintained (e.g. one who walk this way of live), further says, live from the generosity of people and stay where people welcome you, teach of whom is captible...

But also have seen that the organised church never was happy about "right livelyhood" and even forbade such.

So the general rejecting of alm begging monks seems to have a long history, tendence in the west.
 
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Because the world turns in direction east. So everything behind is west and when one stands at the places of origin of most teachings, locking forward, all behind is called west. But for sure a challenge in the philosophy forum. Wil will know what actually is meant. All what "follows" behind, or has flown in the other direction.
 
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Samana Johann said:
My person never really asked or researched of how Jesus supported his life in regard of food, clothes, housing and medicin and which lifelyhood his near fellows followed ... Are their evidences about it?
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There are clues in Scripture, and some commentary from the Tradition.

Jesus was the son of a carpenter and it's assumed He would have learned/helped the family business, bearing in mind that "I must be about my father's business?" (Juke 2:49)

He began His ministry in Capaernum, and from there set off on His 'missions' with His core disciples, plus other followers including (men and) women we must suppose were of 'independent means' and supported Him financially.

Seven of the disciples were fishermen, and of them James and John are assumed to be successful, and perhaps even owned a fleet of vessels. In Scripture John is clearly known and accepted in the highest circles of the Sanhedrin, and his writings indicate a very good education.

As Wil said, Matthew was a tax collector, a despised profession. Of the others we have no certain evidence.

Samana Johann said:
Are there maybe also suggestions in the teachings of this religion in regard of livelyhood for "priest" or those who sacrify their whole live to walk a spirituell path as well as for "ordinary" people, people holding on a household?
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Yes there are.

In the Jewish Tradition a rabble is expected to have a trade — Paul was a tentmaker and worked as such while on his mission journeys.

The early Church, from biblical times, established a kind of hierarchy to manage the needs of a preaching community. The 12 appointed deacons who would be living and working in the community, and very quickly this evolved to the triad of bishop, priest and deacon. The priest is the key, as one who would draw an income from the community, and concentrate on pastoral matters, including the physical health as well as the spiritual health of the community. The deacons doing the same, but maintaining their own professions. A bishop is just a priest responsible for the care of a diocese, a city, a region ...
 
Samana Johann said:
And how about Jesus him self?

My person wonders then where the Vita apostolica comes from. Could find such in Matthäus 10,5-15. A commantd that nobody followed right from the beginning, never had been done by one self or simply got lost?


In short: don't accept money (gold,silber...), do not store e.g. to live hand-to-mouth, no secound clothes, no shoes, do stick... "because one who work has the right for being maintained (e.g. one who walk this way of live), further says, live from the generosity of people and stay where people welcome you, teach of whom is captible...

But also have seen that the organised church never was happy about "right livelyhood" and even forbade such.

So the general rejecting of alm begging monks seems to have a long history, tendence in the west.
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Hi. New here. It might help to also consider verse 11.

Matthew 10:9-11 "Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave."

I believe it was an ancient Jewish custom to invite visitors to one's village to stay with one, giving them food to eat and beds in which to sleep (verse 11). But the one staying also worked for those providing room and board (verse 10). Sounds like it was a kind of bed and breakfast thing, doing labor in return for the hospitality.

Jesus appears to have done the same, as I recall his words, here:

Luke 19:1-5 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way. When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.”

I've heard some Bible teachers say that it was a great honor for a respected rabbi to invite himself to stay at one's home. According to these teachers, it was unsettling that Jesus chose to stay with a man who was working for the enemy, ripping his own people off, as tax collectors made money by collecting more taxes than people owed the Roman occupiers.
 
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Amta (my person) quoted that in German, sadhu! (Excellent), Spockrates.

Its just that it seems that such was never really put into practice or supressed. The case of Rabi is more a paradox, since (as far as known) "needs to have a trade".

How ever, just a short step by, since those beggars have similar needed conditions or places they dwell.

It is good and conuctive to go further into this topic and seek for not only information.
 
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Samana Johann said:
Its just that it seems that such was never really put into practice or supressed. The case of Rabi is more a paradox, since (as far as known) "needs to have a trade".
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I think a bit of history helps in this. It is generally accepted (though debated by some) that the early church was pretty poor, so presbyters (what Thomas identifies later as "priests" above) would most likely have had to work jobs outside the church community. Later developments of bishop, etc. came as the church expanded and became more structured. With the conversion of Emperor Constantine and the Edict of Milan (313 CE), the church was suddenly flush with Imperial cash which meant you could actually work "full-time" as a priest so it became less necessary to work outside the church (and more necessary to work within it as the Christian population exploded during this period, requiring more priests for travelling, conducting services, humanitarian work, etc.).

All that being said, there have been movements throughout church history to retrieve the original bi-vocational model of the earliest church (e.g. Mendicant Orders, some Anabaptist traditions) and even today, pastors of smaller churches with less resources have to work outside the church. But the role of pastor/priest has become so professionalized in our modern context that it makes bi-vocational ministry very difficult. More is expected of pastors today than presbyters in the first century (who had their own challenges).

Hope this gives a bit more context as to how we moved away from this model. It has advantages and disadvantages which we could go into if you are interested. BTW I am an ecclesiologist (that is, I study the theology of the Christian church) so this is kinda my field, don't feel intimidated ;)

As a slight aside, it is robustly accepted that Jesus and his followers were quite poor and lived on the good graces of others (check out Matt. 8:20; 17:24-27; 27:55; Mark 15:40-41; Luke 8:2-3; Acts 3:6).
 
"What was the livelihood of Jesus and his near fellows?"
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Jesus used to be supported by many of the women from the Galilee, especially the companions of his wife Mary Magdalene. (Mat. 27:55,56)
 
ixoye9871, Sadhu for the generous share. Actually, since churches tend to give rise to "corruption", my person is more interested in how Jesus and his disciples, and those followed them, used to live on, meaning, did they trade or took what was given?

Maranguape, Sadhu, supported means what? Certain trade, by money, silber and gold, or just by the four requisites: food, cloth, shelte, medicin?
 
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Samana Johann said:
... my person is more interested in how Jesus and his disciples, and those followed them, used to live on, meaning, did they trade or took what was given?

Maranguape, Sadhu, supported means what? Certain trade, by money, silber and gold, or just by the four requisites: food, cloth, shelte, medicin?
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Good question.

Some of the apostles were fishermen. It is mention often, but the gospels do not say how Jesus earned a living, during the three-and-a-half years of his ministry, though he was bought up as a carpenter.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating what others have said.

He was a popular teacher, was often invited to stay and dine with all sorts of people.

Jesus said: foxes have holes and birds have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head.

At one time he and the apostles are picking and eating corn as they walk through a cornfield. (Another time) He blasts a fig tree for having no fruit for him when he is hungry. (The same day he whips the moneylenders out of the temple.)

He told his apostles not to take a spare robe or spare sandals, to stay in whatever house invited them and take what was given them, as they went from town to town healing the sick and preaching the gospel.

He healed leprosy and other incurable diseases and conditions, cast out demons, gave sight to the blind and even raised the dead.

He turned water into wine, and fed 5000 with five loaves and two fishes.


Once when required to pay a tax, he told his apostles to throw a net, and it came in with a fish with a piece of money in its mouth, which he told them to use to pay the tax.

He says, essentially: God clothes the lilies and feeds the ravens, and you are worth more than them So have no thought of your material needs (tomorrow) Only live (today) for God?

I may have missed something? That's basically all the gospels say. That's where all information about Jesus' life comes from.

Have you read John's gospel?
 
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Christian monks renounce all personal possessions and vow lives of poverty, chastity and obedience (to the Abbot). Monasteries support themselves. Some make and sell alcoholic beverages. Donations are not refused, of course. There are richer and poorer monasteries. Some have grand churches. Others just a chapel. But the monks share communal showers and toilets, although the infirm have a bath and toilet in their room. If a monk has a wristwatch or cellphone or use of a car etc, they belong to the monastery. Some orders, like some Franciscans, do beg on the streets, but it is quite rare amongst Christian monks to actually hold out a begging bowl.
 
wil said:
Interesting... How many times was he invited to stay and dine with people?

I'd be interested in the names and sorts of folk represented.

Is this conjecture or scriptural?
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Sigh. Google it, wil ...
 
When he entered Jerusalem they lined the streets and threw palms down at his feet. They climbed trees to see him and lowered the sick down through a hole in the roof, to be healed, because they couldn't get close to him.

'Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my son shall be healed' said the centurion. Etc ...
 
It's the monks who really protect the inner truth and truly represent the church. Not the Vatican or CofE fat-cats and cardinals and bishops -- in general, imo
 
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