Burqa or chador?

[Namaste Jesus]

I'm referring to firsthand evidence as my source and study. What I have studied and observed myself.

Such as? What have you studied specifically? What have you observed?

Surely, you can conduct some form of research yourself to verify? I'm sure my word is not evidence, so it would only be incumbent to do so?

No, it is not up to others to prove your point. You made the statement. The burden of proof is on you, not us.

Response:

Constantly writing the word 'Response' is unnecessary. If you have highlighted a previous post and written something after it, it will be obvious to other's that you are responding.

I agree with it being irrefutable, you aren't saying anything to refute, more than your opinion. It's the right way to go if the only thing you care about is not being wrong, but you won't get any closer to any truth, you aren't convincing anyone but yourself, and the will never be any meaningful exchange. Well, not in my opinion. I hope you find a likeminded poster here but I don't think there are any right now.

Very much agree here. It appears as though AF has convinced himself that his opinions are facts and that actual facts are mere opinions. Indeed, no meaningful exchange is possible under these circumstances.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Such as? What have you studied specifically? What have you observed?

No, it is not up to others to prove your point. You made the statement. The burden of proof is on you, not us.

Constantly writing the word 'Response' is unnecessary. If you have highlighted a previous post and written something after it, it will be obvious to other's that you are responding.

Very much agree here. It appears as though AF has convinced himself that his opinions are facts and that actual facts are mere opinions. Indeed, no meaningful exchange is possible under these circumstances.

Response: And my point is clearly proven, supported by your clear inability to show otherwise.

So I agree, no meaningful exchange is possible. For when someone presents a claim with an argument, such as myself, and all the other person has to say against it is the claim "Not true", or "you have no proof", with NO argument as you do, then of course there can be no meaningful exchange.

 

[wil]

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

So I agree, no meaningful exchange is possible. For when someone presents a claim with an argument, such as myself, and all the other person has to say against it is the claim "Not true", or "you have no proof", with NO argument as you do, then of course there can be no meaningful exchange.

To the contrary. You've presented a claim without an argument. That is, not supplied a shred of evidence to support it. Even so, several members have taken your claim at face value and provided you case studies and eyewitness accounts that tend to say otherwise.

And my point is clearly proven, supported by your clear inability to show otherwise.

Again, it is your claim, not ours. The burden of proof is yours and yours alone.

In order to disprove something, you must first be able to prove it or at least give specific examples of how you reached your conclusion. At that point the merits of such evidence can be discussed.

In this case, your inability or refusal to answer even the most basic of questions fails to meet [your] burden of proof and precludes any meaningful discussion.

Given the lack of evidence to support your claim and your continued evasiveness and defensive posture when asked to provide such evidence, one can only conclude that your original statement is based largely on conjecture and therefore completely erroneous.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

To the contrary. You've presented a claim without an argument. That is, not supplied a shred of evidence to support it. Even so, several members have taken your claim at face value and provided you case studies and eyewitness accounts that tend to say otherwise.


Again, it is your claim, not ours. The burden of proof is yours and yours alone.

In order to disprove something, you must first be able to prove it or at least give specific examples of how you reached your conclusion. At that point the merits of such evidence can be discussed.

In this case, your inability or refusal to answer even the most basic of questions fails to meet [your] burden of proof and precludes any meaningful discussion.

Given the lack of evidence to support your claim and your continued evasiveness and defensive posture when asked to provide such evidence, one can only conclude that your original statement is based largely on conjecture and therefore completely erroneous.

Response: Yet your weak rebuttal shows otherwise, thus refuting yourself and making my point as usual.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Response: Yet your weak rebuttal shows otherwise, thus refuting yourself and making my point as usual.

Response: Yet your weak rebuttal shows otherwise, thus refuting yourself and making my point as usual.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Such a confusing thing to be upset by!

It's a catch-22 murphy's Law kind of thing

Life is composed of Ying & Yang
and
Ying & Yang is composed of diametrical opposites too.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Response: And my point is clearly proven, supported by your clear inability to show otherwise.

So I agree, no meaningful exchange is possible. For when someone presents a claim with an argument, such as myself, and all the other person has to say against it is the claim "Not true", or "you have no proof", with NO argument as you do, then of course there can be no meaningful exchange.

I am lost as to what the topic is.

Can I suggest a format ...for example:

My Claim: _____________________

My Argument claim: _____________________

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Response: Yet your weak rebuttal shows otherwise, thus refuting yourself and making my point as usual.

I have to ask.

If you say culture/society dictates what modesty is, rather than the recorded (although you call them weak) Hadiths of the Prophet (PBUH). IF that is true, by your logic aren't you essentially saying "wil" and the others are right about Nudity? If society says Nudity is ok and fine, doesn't that mean the level of Modesty is Nudity, and anything more is bonus? ... This is why I refute your logic. While I agree that Nudity is not beneficial for society, your logic is at best flawed.

To the others, I find examples of where Nudity is encouraged to be small societies (aboriginals, tribes, etc). Where it seems to not work is where societies reach a certain side. Porn (as in visualization of naked people, possibly including intercourse between them) has always been a a sin in the Abrahamics, and yet the act of watching women naked and/or in the act of intercourse between her and a man or other woman has always been available. It has also been more recently shown how harmful pornography is for healthy relationships.

Nudity, IMO, is harmful to women who are (at least from my observation) more focused on beauty, and how they compare. small imperfections seem to cause large issues in their psychology. Men, we tend to fall victim to measurement comparisons. Those same issues that bothers each gender about each other, also IMO leads to comparing the other genders. Men tend to pick based on what we like to see, and vice versa. but even then it is impossible for me to think a majority or even a large minority of people would be able to have healthy relationships knowing that they can see others who don't have a flaw that their mate does. I would love for the utopian idea where all people could judge and pick their mates based on non-physical attributes, but that just isn't how we are wired. Not everyone has the same desires, but there are multiple people who desire each look. And let's be honest, how many women would be willing to get to know the guy with the small genitalia when the guy with a Huge one is right there too... we often look at it in terms of the woman, but the other way is just as difficult.

 

[wil]

Again... In nudist.colony, or a nude beach...all those comparisons lay bare...never heard.any size issues/comparisons for men, and women openly speak of.how they easily get over beauty comparisons and phobias...we all learn that all bodies are different...and losing the constraints if clothes.and stature have an equalizing manner.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Nudity, IMO, is harmful to women who are (at least from my observation) more focused on beauty, and how they compare. small imperfections seem to cause large issues in their psychology. Men, we tend to fall victim to measurement comparisons. Those same issues that bothers each gender about each other, also IMO leads to comparing the other genders. Men tend to pick based on what we like to see, and vice versa. but even then it is impossible for me to think a majority or even a large minority of people would be able to have healthy relationships knowing that they can see others who don't have a flaw that their mate does. I would love for the utopian idea where all people could judge and pick their mates based on non-physical attributes, but that just isn't how we are wired. Not everyone has the same desires, but there are multiple people who desire each look. And let's be honest, how many women would be willing to get to know the guy with the small genitalia when the guy with a Huge one is right there too... we often look at it in terms of the woman, but the other way is just as difficult.

I agree with what you are saying, to a point. These are issues that can occur, and often do. But it often does not, and I also don't think that hiding our bodies changes the underlying issues, desires and insecurities of individuals and society as a whole.

By the very nature of humans I would expect new issues to arise in societies where modesty is paramount. But I have no experience of this and I haven't read any study to confirm this. Perhaps a future project to explore.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Again... In nudist.colony, or a nude beach...all those comparisons lay bare...never heard.any size issues/comparisons for men, and women openly speak of.how they easily get over beauty comparisons and phobias...we all learn that all bodies are different...and losing the constraints if clothes.and stature have an equalizing manner.

again, an example of small communities. from moral perspectives I suspect there are other issues going on in these locations as well. And let's be honest, this idea that NOONE is comparing or finding flaws in themselves or others is ridiculous. Some people get comfortable with it as they don't care.. but overall people will look and compare size shape and flaws of one another and themselves.

I agree with what you are saying, to a point. These are issues that can occur, and often do. But it often does not, and I also don't think that hiding our bodies changes the underlying issues, desires and insecurities of individuals and society as a whole.

Here I think it is important that we step back and ask if Islam is the only solution to any single problem. The answer is no. (hold up a bit Muslims, I'll explain) Islam contains a set of instructions for all mankind and for many aspects together. Is a piece of cloth going to make men not try to look at women? no. But if he were married and satisfied in his needs, a piece of clothing might deter him from becoming envious of something new or better. I think as we talk more and more about the individual things prescribed we will keep getting into these little discussions where I or anyone on the planet can prove one way or other would be better, which is why we must take all the commands at the same time, to understand the wisdom behind the individual commands. Even then we will never know all the benefits. as much is just what we think.

I can say however, clothing covers many imperfections. Women who are self-conscious about scars, weight, stretch marks (these can apply to men also, but women in my experience have always been more susceptible) can walk around confidently without most people being any wiser.

By the very nature of humans I would expect new issues to arise in societies

I agree with this statement regardless of the rule/law referenced after it. It is our job to try to keep it in check. and not let it get out of hand... sometimes a jolt back to center helps.

 

[wil]

Some people get comfortable with it as they don't care.. but overall people will look and compare size shape and flaws of one another and themselves.

Yes, if they can't get over fat and flabby. If they can't see everyone's scars and droop by gravity, right along with young and perky, toddlers to great grandparents... If you are still judgemental and/or focused on sex after this... No hope for ya. Where as clothed and having discussions not near as open.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Here I think it is important that we step back and ask if Islam is the only solution to any single problem. The answer is no. (hold up a bit Muslims, I'll explain) Islam contains a set of instructions for all mankind and for many aspects together. Is a piece of cloth going to make men not try to look at women? no. But if he were married and satisfied in his needs, a piece of clothing might deter him from becoming envious of something new or better. I think as we talk more and more about the individual things prescribed we will keep getting into these little discussions where I or anyone on the planet can prove one way or other would be better, which is why we must take all the commands at the same time, to understand the wisdom behind the individual commands. Even then we will never know all the benefits. as much is just what we think.

I can say however, clothing covers many imperfections. Women who are self-conscious about scars, weight, stretch marks (these can apply to men also, but women in my experience have always been more susceptible) can walk around confidently without most people being any wiser.

I agree with this statement regardless of the rule/law referenced after it. It is our job to try to keep it in check. and not let it get out of hand... sometimes a jolt back to center helps.

I think I agree with all of this. I cant get an argument going nowhere!

 

[Abdullah]

Response: The wearing of the Burqa or chador is cultural. Not Islamic. So is the head cover. These are cultural practices and has nothing to do with Islam. In Islam, women are required to cover their private parts (breasts, and the area between the bottom of their butt to their waistline) in clothing that does not flaunt their curves. There is nothing that says womem cannot show their legs or hair.

However, womem are required to be modest and in many cultures, exposing your legs and hair are immodest and seductive. Therefore, women are required to do so.

hey bro, hijab is an Islamic obligation by consensus

 

[Abdullah]

What? There are boundaries to the religious requirements?

Sorry wil, missed this post

there are different rulings according to the circumstances. in the West, safety is the main priority. it can hinder attraction towards Islam too. many people resent the niqab and see it as the arabisation of their country/culture