Muslim Religion

[bmartin]

Thank you to all that responded to my questions on the meanings of Infidel and cleric.
I asked these questions because I wanted to define the status given to each one.
It is my understanding as a Catholic, that I'm a non-believer or infidel, and that the people in charge, Imam, cleric, person in charge, or whatever term applies, had (has) declared a "holy jihad (against the infidels of the world)(Holy War) on behalf of the Muslim Religion.
Leave interpretations of the Bible or the Koran out of the equation.
It is my understanding that all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. (9/11, numerous threats, suicide bombings, kidnapping and bombings).
I cannot imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven.
I have a problem with the Muslim Religion being a peaceful religion when possibly you, but not limited to your brother Imams, people in charge, person in charge or clerics are telling your followers to kill me.
It is very strange to me that you would be welcomed in any church in America, and would not have to worry about being there. There would be no armed guards or military around and you would not be searched at the door. I cannot say that about visiting a Mosque in the east, why is that?
Lastly I leave just one question: Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I'm going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

you are killing yourselves in details

 

[Friend]

Thank you to all that responded to my questions on the meanings of Infidel and cleric.
I asked these questions because I wanted to define the status given to each one.
It is my understanding as a Catholic, that I'm a non-believer or infidel, and that the people in charge, Imam, cleric, person in charge, or whatever term applies, had (has) declared a "holy jihad (against the infidels of the world)(Holy War) on behalf of the Muslim Religion.
Leave interpretations of the Bible or the Koran out of the equation.
It is my understanding that all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. (9/11, numerous threats, suicide bombings, kidnapping and bombings).
I cannot imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven.
I have a problem with the Muslim Religion being a peaceful religion when possibly you, but not limited to your brother Imams, people in charge, person in charge or clerics are telling your followers to kill me.
It is very strange to me that you would be welcomed in any church in America, and would not have to worry about being there. There would be no armed guards or military around and you would not be searched at the door. I cannot say that about visiting a Mosque in the east, why is that?
Lastly I leave just one question: Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I'm going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?

Salaamu Alyckum all of you

I think ,I explained this issue in another thread "What did you know about Al Jihad in Islam ". ​

Allah didn't tell Muslims to kill anyone ,but he call us to defense our religion and our land if anyone threat them and Islam call us to respect , love and believe in Jesus (peace upon him) but Allah explain for all in Al Qur'aan that some of Jesus followers change his original religious tenets .

one question for you :Who told you that Allah tells us as Muslims to kill you as Christian?​

​

 

[mirrorinthefog]

The people who are currently calling Muslims to "kill the infidels" (ie, anyone who doesn't agree with them) don't have a right to speak for Islam any more than Jerry Fallwell has a right to speak for Christendom. Terrorism has no religion, it only exploits what philosophy is close at hand. Please don't confuse extremist movements with Islam. It is people who corrupt religions, not vice versa. People can use any excuse to kill one another. Targeting a group of people and venting one's hostility on them doesn't solve the problem-it only makes it worse for people who don't share the violent views that are fabled to represent them.

 

[BluejayWay]

you are killing yourselves in details

I agree completely with that statement, PNG--

But, I do need to comment on bmartin's post:

I cannot imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven.

I'm afraid plenty of popes throughout the ages have commanded Christians to do just that--there was that little matter of the Crusades,remember? The Church has managed to slaughter many Christians, as well, all in the name of religion, or God, or heresy, or whatever excuse. Protestant Christians have been just as bad, I'm afraid.
The point being, criticizing Islam as a violent religion from a Christian viewpoint is rather misguided, to me. The pronouncements and actions of any organized religion often veer from the intent of the spirit of that belief's teachings, and those followers who thoughtfully and prayerfully try to follow God as they know him.

“Judge not that you be not judged. For with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged and with what measure you mead, it shall be measured to you again. Why do you behold the moat in your brother’s eye but consider not the beam in your own eye. Or how will you say to your brother, ‘Let me pull the moat out of your eye,’ and behold, a beam is in your own eye.”

 

[bmartin]

To mirrorinthefog, the only one that has read and understands my message, it is the extremists' that make it bad for everyone. The problem is the extremist that convinces people around him to commit crimes in the name of religion, to justify his own end and needs.

 

[mirrorinthefog]

Hi bmartin,

Yes, this is true in every religion; the important thing is to promote tolerance and greater understanding, so that such things are minimized. I think, contrary to what some would have us think, dialogue can take us further than weapons.

 

[Friend]

The people who are currently calling Muslims to "kill the infidels" (ie, anyone who doesn't agree with them) don't have a right to speak for Islam any more than Jerry Fallwell has a right to speak for Christendom. Terrorism has no religion, it only exploits what philosophy is close at hand. Please don't confuse extremist movements with Islam. It is people who corrupt religions, not vice versa. People can use any excuse to kill one another. Targeting a group of people and venting one's hostility on them doesn't solve the problem-it only makes it worse for people who don't share the violent views that are fabled to represent them.

Alsalamu Alyckum

mirrorinthefog,thanks to you and to all christians who agree with you .

 

[iBrian]

Terrorism has no religion, it only exploits what philosophy is close at hand.

Indeed.

 

[thipps]

Indeed.

ditto.

 

[table]

Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I'm going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?

Firstly, it is forbidden for a Muslim to kill anyhting or anyone unjustly.

Allah does not command Muslims to kill you in order to go to Heaven.

When somebody is opressed, nobody is free. Why is it that Muslims in peaceful countries like America don't blow themselves up like those in war-torn countries?

Those terrorists you see now just happen to be Muslims. If America were to invade China or India and blow up buildings there, I bet thousands of terrorist groups will emerge, and they won't even be Muslims. It is a natural reaction, not an 'Islamic' thing.

Finally, your Jesus is their Jesus too. Their Allah is your Allah too. Only they don't worship Jesus at all, and you worship Allah less than you worship Jesus.

 

[bmartin]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck

 

[the_truth]

bmartin, you have terribly misunderstood this wonderful way of life..

It is my understanding as a Catholic, that I'm a non-believer or infidel, and that the people in charge, Imam, cleric, person in charge, or whatever term applies, had (has) declared a "holy jihad (against the infidels of the world)(Holy War) on behalf of the Muslim Religion.

But where does it say in the Quran to kill innocent non-believers??

Also please know that a lot of people have misquoted the Quran and are still doing so, there are plenty of verses that order the killing the disbelievers..

one example i can give you is.. chapter 9 verses 1-5.. where it is mentioned to "kill the disbelievers wherever you find them",here is the verse

"5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then"​

from the look of it, i do admit that it sounds cruel, but it's taken out of context!! to understand the real meaning, please read the preceding verses, here they are:

"1. Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty:




2. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His guidance).

3. And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve.

4. Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

So you see here, that the unbelievers of makkah had broken a peace treaty by slaying a few believers from the muslim side, thus the criminals had to be brought to justice and a battle was started..

But here's the amazing part, the next verse says:

6. And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad) , then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah; and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

I ask you now, which army general today would escort his enemies to a place of safety?? At the most he would desert them, but escort them to a place of safety??


​

well, i have debunked just one of the verses that people claim to "inspire" muslims to murder, all the other verses have similiar explanations too.. i have dwelt deeply into this topic..

Leave interpretations of the Bible or the Koran out of the equation.
It is my understanding that all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. (9/11, numerous threats, suicide bombings, kidnapping and bombings).

I have just explained to you that Islam is peace and terrorism it does not teach!

regarding 9/11, its unislamic! the killing of innocent people whthere muslim or non-muslim is not allowed in Islam..

And by the way, its "Qur'an" not "koran"..

I cannot imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven.

well, it did actually happen during the crusades didn't it? Should muslims judge christianity by the death of 40,000 innocent muslim women and children??

I have a problem with the Muslim Religion being a peaceful religion

Not just you my friend, many people even though they know the truth about islam, like to brand it as "barbaric" and "violent"..

when possibly you, but not limited to your brother Imams, people in charge, person in charge or clerics are telling your followers to kill me.

this i agree with you.. many islamic clerics are misguided and teach violence! yes it's happening but they dont represent islam in any way! to judge islam, its right to judge it by its sources(Quran and authentic hadith) and not its followers..

It is very strange to me that you would be welcomed in any church in America, and would not have to worry about being there. There would be no armed guards or military around and you would not be searched at the door. I cannot say that about visiting a Mosque in the east, why is that?

Not at all, I have not come across a single mosque in my country that hassecurity guards everywhere.. except during Eid(festival) because we need to take precautions against islamophobia.

Lastly I leave just one question: Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I'm going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?

Dont believe all what you see on TV.. america is literally owned by pro-israelis you know that!? CNN is jewish, you know that!?

Of course there are good jews as well, but CNN is trying to portray Islam and muslims from a "barbaric" point of view..

people are dying in palestine.. babies are killed! a boy throws a stone against a full armored tank and as he runs away, gets shot in the back!!??

http://palestinepics.jeeran.com/

ARE WE THE TERRORISTS NOW??????????

If you are still in doubt?.. this one verse from the last testament of God, would clear everything up once and for all!!

"that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had: saved the life of all mankind."




​

Qura'n (5:32)

take care.

 

[mansio]

Hello The Truth,

Every honest reader of the Koran must admit that Muslims are advised to resort to violence only when attacked, and must live peacefully alongside non-believers when not attacked.
The likes of Bin Ladin and suicide bombers read the same Koran as peaceful Muslims, so I wonder what is the definition of being attacked and by whom.

I don't like the famous verse 5:32 from the Koran (which is inspired by a similar verse from Jewish commentaries) because of the inclusion of "for other than manslaughter or corruption on the earth". I think that clause nullifies the message given by the verse. It actually gives licence to kill people you deem bringing corruption on earth.

 

[livingintheraw]

I can understand why this may be confusing for you. I have very good friends who are Muslim. They would never in your wildest dreams suicide bomb. They also don't believe what has happened is the right way to handle it. I've read the Kuran to get a better understanding of them and it isn't much different then the Bible. The stories are pretty much the same as ours are in the Bible. Their creation story is different, it acturally describes creation more like the big bang theory. It talks of Jesus Christ, but as a great prophet. It is their belief that the virgin miricale could have happened, it's just that they don't believe that it was the actual sperm of God that inpregnated Mary. (My observations) Muhammad was a womens libber and so was, believe it or not, Jesus Christ. No where in the Koran does it tell women to dress the way they do. The manner of dress is a tradition that predates the Kuran. Your right the Pope would never support a Christian behaving in this manner that these particular Muslims have behaved. But, look in the old testament. All throughout there is the genocide. God supposedly wanting the Jews to cleanse the earth of a particular race. Personally I don't think God would want that. These are the same stories that are in the Koran which are being quoted. In my opinnion these stories are rationalized that it must be what God wanted because it is what was "allowed" to be done. God gave us free will for a reason. It is through our free will the we decide our fates with him. (MY opinion) He doesn't interfere with our actions because that would violate the gift of free will. I do believe he comes to us if asked. It boils down to this with these Muslim factions. These are the fanatical groups, just like the fanatical Christian groups we have right here in America. They are not representative of the majority but they make the most noise. I've had a chance to go to Israel and have my baptism reconfirmed in the Jordan River. I learned a lot while I was there. The majority of the time, when Muslims in history took over a territory such as Jerusalem, they allowed people to maintain their religious beliefs. For thousands of years Christians, Biblical Jews and Muslims lived in peace in Israel until the Ashkenazi Jews were given Israel in 1948. This is where it became more millitant on both sides. I'm not in judgment about what happened here, I'm just explaining a fact. The problem here (in my opinion) is with mankind and how we interpret thing to fit our own agendas.

 

[the_truth]

hello mansio,

Every honest reader of the Koran must admit that Muslims are advised to resort to violence only when attacked, and must live peacefully alongside non-believers when not attacked.

I cant agree with you more..

The likes of Bin Ladin and suicide bombers read the same Koran as peaceful Muslims, so I wonder what is the definition of being attacked and by whom.

But bin laden and his likes, interpret the Qur'an to suit their needs,I had just given an example of how easy it is to misinterpret the Qur'an.The real reason behind his global attacks.. i'm not sure.. As a matter of fact there's even a prophecy about these kind of muslims, i'll get you the hadith the next time (if i can find it), God willing..

As muslims we can attack only if attacked.

I don't like the famous verse 5:32 from the Koran (which is inspired by a similar verse from Jewish commentaries) because of the inclusion of "for other than manslaughter or corruption on the earth".

I really don't understand what you are trying to say friend.Are you saying that the guilty must not be punished at all?

There is wisdom behind every verse in the Qura'n.In this case God gives us permission to kill only in these cases (plus also in self-defense)..

But you must first of all notice that killing an innocent man is a serious thing, as mentioned in 5:32.

ok,Let's say that a man murders his wife and gets away with it. you can probably imagine the situation in the woman's family.Such people are ought to be punished.

If you say that the 'death sentence' is too harsh.. let's take the example of adultery (or maybe rape), in Islam such people are to be put to death.. But If the man goes to jail and serves 7-8 years there and then returns, he'll probably do the same thing again,and he escape this time.. but the 'death penalty" frightens him from the very beginning itself and he would never think of doing such things in his life.. the same goes for theft in which the theif's hands are to be cut off. It may sound cruel, but do you know that in mecca, people leave their shops open while they are at the mosque.

It actually gives licence to kill people you deem bringing corruption on earth.

corruption is not an ordinary thing either.In some cases,it's similiar to murder, except that people die in indirect ways.. for example, if the food minister of a particluar country pockets the money needed to feed thousands of people in a village, just to satisfy his needs and live a leisurely life.. people are bound to die out of hunger.It has been happening in countries like India.

About the terror attacks all over the west, we are at a loss to explain to the media as to why people are killing in the name of Allah.. We ourselves don't know why people would do such horrible things.It was also partly our fault for not spreading the true meaning of islam before 9/11.I mean we did, but not really as much as being done today.even after 9/11 Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, becasue people did not even know what islam was in the first place.All they thought was that.. it was a desert religion,bowing done to moon god or something wierd.

But what really is terrorism? It means killing innocent people right? i'm sure you will agree with me.If that is the case, then you see, even countries like USA and Israel are terrorists..because they are murdering civilians (almost everyday now).How come they aren't branded terrorists? this is what media brainwashing does.

Because of the sanctions on Iraq by us president Clinton, i think about a million died out of hunger.. why didn't anyone call bill a terrorist? maybe because he was charming?

There's one more very important thing non-muslims have to understand, it's the value of a muslim life to us.. so if a brother dies in iraq,someone's crying in malaysia..yes,this is why muslims all over the world are always opposing wars in muslim countries.. nationality is below religion.

Muslims are dying from terror attacks too.. please realize that.there's a lot of islamophobia all over the world.Muslims are treated as strange people,even comical people.I myself was delightfully shocked when i found this forum (by accident), and the brotherhood among the people here, is difficult to find anywhere on the net.The people running this forum are doing a great job.If anyone of those guys are reading this, I just want to say thanks to them!

-PEACE!-

 

[mansio]

I have an explanation of Islamic terrorism. I learned it when I was wondering why the Algerian Islamic insurgents started a civil war (Muslims against Muslims) that killed 150000 people.
It's the theory of dar al-Islam against dar al-Harb. The Islamic insurgents in Algeria consider that the areas they control are true Islamic territory, the dar al-Islam. Everything outside that area is dar al-Harb and can be subjected to attacks and slaughters.
I think that's the theory behind the likes of Bin Ladin. Everyone who isn't siding with them belongs to dar al-Harb and must suffer the consequencies.

 

[Kelcie]

Hi The Truth,

But what really is terrorism? It means killing innocent people right? i'm sure you will agree with me.If that is the case, then you see, even countries like USA and Israel are terrorists..because they are murdering civilians (almost everyday now).How come they aren't branded terrorists? this is what media brainwashing does.

Killing no matter what guise it is performed under is Mans error not Gods, not Allah. Killing is almost always in the name of a religion, or justice, or whatever excuse one can find. It is how Man has choosen to interpret and use the wisdom of religion that has been the problem as you have so clearly demonstrated. And like livingintheraw says
"The problem here (in my opinion) is with mankind and how we interpret thing to fit our own agendas"
Terrorism, Wars, killings and all things that make for an unhappy existence are in my opinion not necessary to effect change or improve our earthly existence. It is out of ignorance and unawareness that participants in such atrocities can not see there is a more natural way of effecting positive changes. In time however this too will change.

Stay strong to your faith.

Kelcie

 

[the_truth]

I have an explanation of Islamic terrorism. I learned it when I was wondering why the Algerian Islamic insurgents started a civil war (Muslims against Muslims) that killed 150000 people.
It's the theory of dar al-Islam against dar al-Harb. The Islamic insurgents in Algeria consider that the areas they control are true Islamic territory, the dar al-Islam. Everything outside that area is dar al-Harb and can be subjected to attacks and slaughters.
I think that's the theory behind the likes of Bin Ladin. Everyone who isn't siding with them belongs to dar al-Harb and must suffer the consequencies.

dar-al harb is the territory of those who have declared war against muslim nations.But in this case too, the attacks must be only in self-defense.

you may be right about this. I also think this is why OBL kills civilians:

"American history does not distinguish between civilians and military, not even women and children. They are the ones who used bombs against Nagasaki. Can these bombs distinguish between infants and military? America does not have a religion that will prevent it from destroying all people."-interview in 1998

I think from here,that he bases his attacks on the actions of some of the nations on his hate list.A tit for tat policy (you kill our citizens,we murder yours), and he's using the Quran to justify the kilings and to gain massive support among the muslims in the neighbouring countries.

Only an opinion, I could be wrong.

Sorry i couldn't find the prophecy, i'm still searching for it.

 

[the_truth]

Hello Kelcie,

Hi The Truth,



Killing no matter what guise it is performed under is Mans error not Gods, not Allah. Killing is almost always in the name of a religion, or justice, or whatever excuse one can find.

I cannot totally agree with you,that killing is always wrong.You mentioned justice here.have you ever wondered why all over the world there are prisons?Isn't it obvious.. the criminal in jail would be so disgusted and mentally tortured at being confined to a small single room all his life,so that when he comes out,he would never dare do the same crime again.

But it really is happening,The criminal does the same thing again,but this time he esapes the law.

But if a death sentence is issued, he wouldn't dare do it,even if it was to be the first time.Death and the thought of leaving this world frightens him so much.He has only one chance here.

What i'm trying to say is that a killing order may also be used to prevent crime,not many people would be tempted to crime if a 'death sentence' is issued,thus reducing crime rate.

It is how Man has choosen to interpret and use the wisdom of religion that has been the problem as you have so clearly demonstrated. And like livingintheraw says
"The problem here (in my opinion) is with mankind and how we interpret thing to fit our own agendas"

your'e right.no religion or faith teaches to kill.

Terrorism, Wars, killings and all things that make for an unhappy existence are in my opinion not necessary to effect change or improve our earthly existence. It is out of ignorance and unawareness that participants in such atrocities can not see there is a more natural way of effecting positive changes. In time however this too will change.

A lot of people are echoing these same thoughts, but sadly nothings changing Kelcie.I hope things will get better around the world.The worst is still yet to come.

Stay strong to your faith.

God willing,I will. Thank you very much, and take care.

-PEACE!-