The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World

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But @juantoo3
The whole object of the post beginning this thread is to demonstrate that Constantine was not alone responsible for the continued spread of Christianity. It may as easily be viewed as one of the dubious 'articles of faith' of the 'new atheists' who are not above slanting, ignoring or manipulating history to support their anti-Christ agenda?
OK, but that is no reason to shroud the history of the Church in a cloak of mystery.

If G!d exists, and I have reason to believe He/She/It does, then G!d can stand in the light. It is men who wish to hide dubious history for their own political ends.

Atheists hell bent on tearing down Christianity will attempt to do so regardless...no amount of "proof" will suffice. In my mind that shows their overzealous religion for what it is: a religion of no-religion, or more accurately a religion of no-Christianity.
 
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Constantine alone is not responsible for the continued spread of Christianity...I can agree with that, no problem. Constantine *is* responsible for bringing Christianity onto the world stage and generating widespread acceptance and tolerance of the until then radical cult sect of Judaism. And the philanthropy of Constantine towards the newly minted Church provided a level of esteem the faith had until then been lacking in the eyes of the general public. This was a masterful feat of political maneuvering that only a mind (and arguably heart) of a man such as Constantine could pull off.
 
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Thomas said:
There is a common web-meme that Christianity was invented in the fourth century by the Emperor Constantine. That the decrees of Constantine, especially that of making Christianity the state religion, had a massive impact goes without question, but quite how much is a matter of some dispute.

I think the impact of Constantine was HUGE. Lest one forget, Galerius was in full swing on a hunt to weed Christians out of his administration, including the military. Had he succeeded, we would be singing a very different tune.

The Orthodox traditions have always held him in high regard, he and his mother Helena are saints in most of the eastern churches. The western Catholic tradition, suspicius of Byzantine "Caesaropapism", venerates the sainted Helena but has a slightly less enthusiastic view of Constantine.

I'm sure you are aware Constantine is considered by some, no less himself, to be the 13th Apostle. He is in fact buried alongside St Andrew, St Luke and St Timothy in the Church of the Holy Apostles.

Francis of Assisi traces corruption in the Church back to his conversion, and Bernard of Clairvaux expressed grave reservations about the impact of the (alleged) “Donation of Constantine” that was thought to have transferred authority over the western Europe to the Popes. More radical medieval critics like Wycliffe and Jan Hus saw the conversion of Constantine as the point where "true Christianity" was subverted and suppressed by a pagan corruption of the true faith.

The Donation of Constantine was proven long ago to be a forgery composed no earlier than the 8th century...and used by the Church to exercise authority over Pepin the Short and other European Monarchs. So anything using the Donation of Constantine as a basis of support automatically draws suspicion from me.

The Donation of Constantine (Latin: Donatio Constantini) is a forged Roman imperial decree by which the 4th century emperor Constantine the Great supposedly transferred authority over Rome and the western part of the Roman Empire to the Pope. Composed probably in the 8th century, it was used, especially in the 13th century, in support of claims of political authority by the papacy.[1] Lorenzo Valla, an Italian Catholic priest and Renaissance humanist, is credited with first exposing the forgery with solid philological arguments in 1439–1440,[2] although the document's authenticity had been repeatedly contested since 1001.[1]
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

And Pepin the Short:
Pepin the Short[a] (German: Pippin der Kurze, French: Pépin le Bref, c. 714 – 24 September 768) was the King of the Franks from 751 until his death. He was the first of the Carolingians to become king.[2]

The younger son of the Frankish prince Charles Martel and his wife Rotrude, Pepin's upbringing was distinguished by the ecclesiastical education he had received from the monks of St. Denis. Succeeding his father as the Mayor of the Palace in 741, Pepin reigned over Francia jointly with his elder brother Carloman.

Pepin died in 768 and was succeeded by his sons Charlemagne and Carloman.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepin_the_Short

Charles Martel, as we know, is the Frankish Prince who stopped the Arab invasion of Europe as they crossed the Pyranees. The decisive Battle of Tours halted the Arab expansion and began the slow push back out of Europe.

Charlemagne, as we know, was the first Holy Roman Emperor.

So Pepin the Short is a key figure in Church history...duped as it were into surrendering authority to the Church that rightly had no business interfering in secular affairs. :D

---

No doubt Francis' objection was the fact Constantine was baptized as an Arian, not an Athanasian. The Church claims Constantine when convenient, and dismisses him when convenient...how is that not political???

Wycliff and Huss, even as early Protestants, had an axe to grind and no doubt sought any and all means to distinguish apart from the excesses of the Medieval Church. And may I remind how Huss died? Burned at the stake by the Catholic Church. Wycliff's "crime" was translating the Greek and Hebrew texts of the Bible into the English vernacular, and thankfully died before he could be charged with heresy for bringing the sacred texts into a vulgar language. Wycliff's followers, the Lollards, were subsequently hounded by the Anglicans.

I would highly recommend a good read of Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which I expect would probably not come about as it is early Protestant History, so I expect to be on the Catholic hit list. C'est la vie.
 
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Of course. It's an open discussion. And way beyond my knowledge to judge. So I'll try wisely to just shut-up and listen, lol ...
 
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Finally, Ehrman looks at the tendency toward imposing restrictions on pagan practice. He notes the various laws constricting public sacrifice, worship by pagans and the orders for the closure of temples. "These laws were directed to specific locales, not empire-wide, and there existed no state apparatus to ensure they were carried out. As a result, they had but little effect: paganism continued, unchecked, in most places. But the laws do show the will of the emperor, and this would not have gone unnoticed. Conversions away from paganism continued apace." (pp. 246-7)
Well, two researches, both old and with some since noted errors yet nevertheless stuffed with examples seem to indicate that Paganism survived the centuries quite well.

The first being "The Golden Bough" by Sir John G Frazer, which demonstrates quite effectively the widespread Pagan practices in rural areas of Europe (by extension the Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire) and elsewhere, even to this day.

The second being "The Two Babylons" by Rev Alexander Hislop that demonstrates the merging of Pagan practices into Christianity...what I believe in the past Thomas called "baptizing"...beginning particularly around the time of Constantine. This seems to be the one element glossed over in these discussions, is just how Pagan Christianity has become in its bid to appeal to a larger audience.

The conclusion of most objective historians: Christianity did not win out because of violent coercion. Michele Renee Salzman observed: "it is hard to accept the interpretation advanced by certain scholars that physical violence, coercion, was a central factor in explaining the spread of Christianity" (p274).
In general I agree, however...let us not lose sight of the fact that by the time of Justinian, armies were in fact used to enforce Christianity and suppress Paganism in what remained of the Empire...a trend that continued through the Crusades and into the Inquisition (and arguably up to World War II).
 
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I expect this is not your work directly, Thomas, rather quoting Ehrman or someone else:

Even if Constantine had not converted, Christianity would still have gone from a relatively low percentage of the population in 312AD to over half of the Empire by 400, by the same organic growth it had seen in the previous three centuries.
This is fallacious reasoning akin to "slippery slope." There is no way to justify this assertion. We are back to looking at Galerius' persecutions and if they had come to full fruition.

Judaism, Christianity was an exclusive religion, where paganism was not. A pagan usually worshipped any number of gods and might do so at different times for different reasons. Family deities, local divine spirits, sacrifices to Neptune, say, before a sea voyage or to Mars before marching to war.
I think this too is based on assumptions, erroneous at that. I would think if we had a classical Pagan to ask, he or she would make an absolute distinction among the gods s/he preferred over the remainder. Another way to look at it, is superstitious people: a person with an aversion to black cats will absolutely make a distinction over that compared to spilled salt or walking under ladders or breaking mirrors.

“Suppose two persons were each promoting a new cult, one the worship of Asclepius and the other the worship of Jesus. A crowd of a hundred pagan polytheists gathers to hear each devotee extol the glories of his god. In the end, the two prove to be equally successful: fifty of the crowd decide now to worship Asclepius and fifty others decide to worship the Christian god. What happens to the overall relationship of paganism and Christianity? If our two hypothetical speakers are equally persuasive, paganism has lost fifty worshippers and gained none, whereas Christianity has gained fifty and lost none.” (p126)
And what of the people who are swayed by neither one? How do we account for them?

It is this accidental but ultimately highly effective combination of exclusivity and outreach that proved the key combination for Christianity and which drove the demographic exponential curve that saw it conquer the Roman Empire.
I don't buy this argument.

, then, Constantine motivated by politics and saw the Christians as a substantial power base?
Hypothetically, presuming there is some element of merit to the argument...then perhaps Galerius saw the growing Christian population as a threat to the Pax Romana from within... A threat I might add that seems borne out but a couple hundred years later with the sack of Rome.

It seems very clearly not. All the evidence indicates that, at least prior to Constantine and his successors, Christianity was substantially a lower class cult. While it had a few aristocratic and learned adherents – and they were prominent because their writings are our main sources of information – the majority of Christians were slaves, 'foreign' non-citizens and the urban plebeians. That Christians were so low class was a perennial comment by pagan observers as well as a source of satire and a basis for at least some anti-Christian polemic (such as Celcius). The popular support from the lower classes played very little or no role in bolstering the claim of a Roman emperor. In Constantine’s time, an emperor stayed on the throne via the support of the army, the senators and the equestrian class. Not the hoi-poloi.
In a society with 80% slaves, it makes sense that *at least* 80% of the converts were slaves. In a society where that percentage of poor Christians is also persecuted, they are even more likely to keep their heads down and mouths shut and keep to themselves...unlike in the West of the Empire where the persecution was not enacted, said slaves might be more willing (I should say *would* be more willing) to step forward and volunteer for military service primarily because it was about the only path to citizenship and full rights and benefits of citizenship in the Empire available to a poor person. Not all would qualify, and not all that stepped forward would be accepted...but the percentage of poor *Christians* that would step forward would necessarily be greater where there was no threat of persecution.

Constantine emerged as the sole ruler largely because he had the support of the Roman army’s officer class, at least enough to give him an edge over his competitors. That support came from the western legions’ devotion to his father and then from his own proven skill as a general. The other key to keeping the throne in this period was the support of the equestrian class. These were the educated administrative elite who kept the Empire running.
Interesting, this seems to fly directly in the face of the *fact* that Constantine disbanded and executed or exiled all of the remaining Praetorian Guard after Milvian Bridge. The vaunted Guard of Emperors, who by that time held the power to make or break Emperors (indeed, the very reason Maximian's son Maxentius courted their favor in Rome). The *fact* that Constantine stepped foot in the borders of Rome exactly twice: on his victory over Maxentius, and the twentieth anniversary of his rule - Constantine could care less about the political bickering among the Senate. Constantine ascended to the throne by virtue of his army, arguably among the, if not the, most well trained soldiers of the day. Constantine enacted several new military strategies leading up to his victory over Maxentius, notably the introduction of a light, rapid deployment force while leaving the bulk of his armies to defend the Northern borders where incursions were a constant threat.

The key point here is that both the military officer class and the equestrians were mostly pagans. There were some Christians in both echelons, but far fewer than in the lower strata.
But the key point is moot, borne out by the facts. Yes, the bulk of the officer class *across the Empire* was Pagan, not necessarily within Constantine's armies. Stated better - the percentage of Christians in Constantine's officer corps was most likely higher than in other armies by virtue of the lack of persecution and general tolerance of that faith among the men in his ranks.

Now - one lesson to consider is that Maximian, in his failed bid to regain power, on two occasions in the period leading up to Constantine's victory over his son, swayed the opposing army to join his side. The first time was a march to rescue his son from Severus, sent by Galerius to punish the usurper. Maximian was able to turn Severus' forces against him by bribery, ending in his capture and eventual execution, a stunning blow that signalled the end for Galerius. Shortly after Father and Son had a falling out, and Maximian fled to Constantine for protection. The second time recorded, Maximian was able to sway some of Contantine's troops with the lie that he had been killed on the battlefield, which when Constantine learned he immediately turned his forces from the task at hand and returned to confront Maximian - which ended in the house arrest and eventual suicide of Maximian. Which became fuel for Maxentius to foment hostilities towards Constantine that led ultimately to Milvian Bridge. This is all readily available Roman History.

Point being, whoever commanded the military, particularly during these periods of civil war, were in the catbird seat to tell the Senate how it was going to be...the Senate did not dictate to the armies, they were not in a position to do so unless with bribery.

So - coming from the Western Empire, Constantine's forces would have had a higher percentage of openly Christian soldiers, both officers / Equestrians *and* enlisted, compared to any other army in the Empire. That percentage still may have only been 10% or less, but it was monumentally higher than in every other army in the Empire by virtue of the purges of the military ranks...St Florian for example.
 
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While many works of literature were lost due to a declining interest in them by Christian scholars, many were also preserved by those same scholars, and "such pagan works may have been lost anyway, without the Christianization of the empire" (p285). Loss is actually the norm for most pre-modern texts. Any student of early Christian history can only wonder and lament the loss of most of Origen's works, or the volumes of early Christian history of Papius ... on balance, the loss shows a general trend across all literature, rather than any attempt to wipe of a pagan heritage.

The destruction of the Library at Alexandria notwithstanding...

"In 642 Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of 'Amr ibn al-'As. There are four Arabic sources, all at least 500 years after the supposed events, which mention the fate of the library.

  • Abd al-Latif al-Baghdadi (1162–1231) states that the library of Alexandria was destroyed by Amr, by the order of the Caliph Umar.[44]
  • The story is also found in Al-Qifti (1172–1248), History of Learned Men, from whom Bar Hebraeus copied the story.[45]
  • The longest version of the story is in the Syriac Christian author Bar-Hebraeus (1226–1286), also known as Abu'l Faraj. He translated extracts from his history, the Chronicum Syriacum into Arabic, and added extra material from Arab sources.[46][47]
  • Al-Maqrizi (1364–1442) also mentions the story briefly, while speaking of the Serapeum.[48]
The accounts of al-Qifti and Bar-Hebraeus are more detailed. They state that "John the Grammarian" asked Amr to spare the library, and Amr contacted the caliph Umar for authorization. Umar replied that if the books agreed with the Quran they were redundant, and if they did not, then they were forbidden. Amr handed the books over to Alexandria's heated bath houses, where they were burned as fuel for six months. This story was still in circulation among Copts in Egypt in the 1920s"
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Library_of_Alexandria

To their credit, were it not for the Muslim scholars of Toledo and a handful of renegade Monks on a far remote island off of Ireland (Skellig Michael) preserving what ancient Greek and Roman scholastic texts still remain through the Dark Ages imposed on Europe by the Catholic Church, we would know nothing of those times or such thinkers as Socrates, Aristotle, Euripides, etc.
 
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The idea that Constantine adopted Christianity for political reasons, something I have believed a possibility — is not the case.
I don't think any of the histories clearly state precisely when Constantine "converted," and ultimately I think it is a red herring anyway. We know his Mother was Christian and his Father was tolerant. Some of the histories note his Father as having Christian advisors...however this would have been after Constantine was already at the Courts of Diocletian and Galerius, so would not have had impact until after Constantine's return as a young man just prior to taking on the purple robes. We also know Constantine was "schooled" for lack of a better phrase in adolescence in Paganism, and in order to be groomed for leadership this would have been absolutely necessary...so he would have had to partake in ritual sacrifices, etc.

We do know, that at the victory over Maxentius at Milvian Bridge, that when Constantine marched triumphantly into Rome, he was expected as all those before him, to offer sacrifice to the Pagan gods in thanks...which all of the histories indicate he refused to do. He simply turned his back and left the city, leaving the priests in shock and astonishment. Was Constantine already Christian at this point? Hard to say...it was only about two years +/- since his Father passed away, and depending which bio you read (Eusebius or Lactantius) it was only a few days to few months since his legendary vision.

To the Pagan side of the equation, Constantine's Imperial coinage still bore the traditional Pagan emblems, particularly Sol Invictus as that is the god he publicly associated with. And he did name a new capitol city after himself, a very Pagan thing to do. In the grand scheme these are trivial I'm sure. But he is not without fault or blemish...

He too, like his Father, had a child by a first wife, and she disappears from the histories without a trace. That child, Crispus, was instrumental in securing his victory over Licinius, which did finally unite the Empire once again. However, Constantine's second wife, a daughter of Maximian and sister to Maxentius, and by whom Constantine had at least 3 more sons, falsely accused Crispus of raping her. In his wrath, Constantine had his son publicly executed (by pouring molten lead down his throat). Constantine's Mother Helena convinced him that he had been deceived by his then wife into killing his son by false accusation in a bid to secure the throne for one of her sons. After learning this, Constantine arranged to have her quietly executed by sealing the door to the Roman bath she was in, and turning up the heat...she essentially cooked to death. Very Pagan way of dealing with this form of state matter...and as Emperor he could get away with it, as clearly he did.

No doubt the Christian side of him anguished over what the Pagan side of him had done. But he was also a practical man, and did what he felt was appropriate as the face of justice within the Empire.

Edward J. Watts’ "The Final Pagan Generation" shows a society that was an weave of family, sponsors, patronage and favours and so religion, like everything else, was a highly communal and shared business, rather than a matter of private and personal conscience. Within this framework, Christianity did not need large scale, organised evangelism – the faith spread organically, family by family, from sponsor to subordinate and from patron to client.
Then why the soapbox standers attempting to sway the attitudes and opinions of passers-by?

Likewise, because my Father converts, doesn't mean I do. While I live in his house I will conform to his "rules," but when I go out on my own I will adopt what seems best to me.

As mentioned above, part of its attraction is that the Christian community provided a highly supportive safety network that was uniquely charitable, caring and supportive. Support for widows and orphans, care of the sick and homeless, the provision of funerals for the poor and the care of graves were all noted as benefits of belonging to the Christian community. Erhman however does not see this a major factor in winning adherents.
Why would it not be a major factor? In Pagan Rome, if you broke your leg it was because you fell out of favor with the gods. If you had money you could get your leg fixed. If you didn't, you were SOL. Your leg either healed of its own devices, most likely not correctly, and you used a crutch the rest of your life...or it was amputated (no sedative or anesthesia) with the same result, or in rare instance you may have a local healer that worked with the poor who would do their best to fix the leg. With the Christians (and to similar extent the Jews), that broken leg was an opportunity for the community to pull resources together in an attempt to make you whole again (fix your leg), or if the leg could not be saved they would provide some element of charity to at least see you were fed, possibly more if it was available to give. These are very different worldviews, and the attraction of the Christian view (only because the Jews were the exclusive ones) who freely accepted any who came to them, seems to me all too obvious.
 
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That aside, if one looks at the web, the common consensus of critics is that Constantine dictated the outcome of Nicea (although material events seem to show otherwise — Arianism did not go away); that he wrote the Bible (an extreme view); that he decided what books were regarded as canonical (not quite so extreme, but equally wrong); that he wrote the Creed (perhaps a pardonable error. he asked for one clause to be clarified. As it turned out, even with the clarification it became a subject of theological contentions, so he failed there); that he 'invented' the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (a clear anachronism). Lastly, that the emperors dictated the development of doctrine. This too is easily dismissed.
If it's on the web it's got to be true! :rolleyes:

The "common concensus" is commonly by folks with an axe to grind, who deliberately take things out of context and twist them to their personal interpretation. Any good student of history knows to watch for these errors of opinion. Not that opinion is somehow irrelevant, but that opinion should consider all sides of a matter.

The Church found itself suddenly the religion of state, and as it continued to grow, the numbers before Constantine (around 5 million adherents) multiplied to 25-35 million by the turn of the fourth century.
I believe you mean fifth century...Constantine lived in the later part of the third and was Emperor during the fourth centuries.

To cope with this exponential expansion, the Church adopted the only viable administrative model available, or if not the only, then at least the most successful, by a long shot — the Roman one. Sadly, it seems to me, we also adopted the material, outward forms of the empire; Christendom was 'the Holy Roman Empire' but it incorporated the less holy trappings of wealth and extravagance.
When in Rome...and all that jazz. It is interesting that when the Empire split after the sack of Rome, and the Eastern Roman Empire (commonly called the Byzantine Empire) continued, some Eastern (Asian/Persian) Court practices were introduced, such as bowing prostrate - there is some evidence remaining in the Orthodox Church of these Persian influences. The Roman Empire always was an amalgam, particularly with the Greeks who themselves were an amalgam...so on the one hand what would one expect to come out of Rome? Something not Roman??? On the other hand, Rome was not above adopting or adapting something from someone else they felt got the job done better.

There are many reasons behind what you point to, some I have suggested (Christians actively involved in State Administration), some have yet to be explored. Because the people could...after Constantine...openly practice the Christian faith without fear of reprisal, why should they otherwise divest themselves of their wealth or property? Slavery didn't end, the poor they had with them always... The status quo continued.

I might be wrong, but it seems to me the Jews before and the Moslems after never quite matched the pomp and circumstance of Christianity.
The Jews lost everything with the Temple. There has been no synagogue to my knowledge to begin to compare with the grandeur of the Holy Temple of Solomon. But the Jews haven't truly had a home to call their own until the rebirth of Israel, they have always been a "guest" minority in other countries.

The Hagia Sophia was built as a Christian Church and still bears indications of that beginning, but it is now and has been for centuries an Islamic Mosque since the fall of the Byzantine Empire. A distinct difference with Islamic architecture is the lack of animal figures, most notably humans...they tend to focus on geometric designs. There is the Dome of the Rock. There is the Kaaba in Mecca. There is the Sultan Ahmed Mosque, also known as the Blue Mosque, built beside the Hagia Sophia with the order to be bigger and better! There is the Alhambra in Spain.

Point being, how does one expressly interpret "pomp and circumstance" from what you wrote? Are you referring instead to ceremony? If so, both Judaism and Islam have ceremonies to rival the best to be found in Christianity.

I think this is also an appropriate and poignant place to point out how...if Christianity came from Judaism...Christians have different ceremonies, customs, traditions and holidays from the Jews to begin with? One would think, to hear the average Sunday School teacher tell how Jesus was a Jew, and go on about Judeo-Christian values and virtues that Judaism and Christianity would share so much more than a Rabbi and 10 rules (and even those have been "adjusted")...yet at Nicea every effort was made to distance Christianity *from* Judaism. I know your arguments, they do not address this full on. The cord was cut - finally, officially, legally, and in every other way that matters - at Nicea, and finalized at the following Council. And we already discussed how a short time after that Christmas - as the birth of Christ - was interposed over the ancient Winter Solstice holiday of Natalis Solis Invicti (just as the Prophet Jeremiah predicted).
 
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I didn't imply Jesus was "added to the pantheon."
OK, my bad. I though you were saying that Jesus went from Jewish trouble-maker to deity in one step, through Constantine's endorsement.

Personally, I think saying "elevated to be the one and only Roman Empirical Deity" is somewhat misleading, and I wanted to clarify, for others who might have assumed otherwise, that Christ was never a deity in the Roman pantheon, and the recognition of His divinity predates the emergence of Christianity as the religion of state.

I know your immediate response from a dogmatic pov is that Jesus *is* G!d...OK, but in a secular sense that was not a given throughout the Empire until Constantine...
Er, it was a given in the Christian community. Constantine did not deify Christ ...
 
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So where I previously understood Constantine to be tolerant of and at a late date accepting Christianity, it seems rather the opposite - he was more vested in the Christian faith during his life than he was in the state sanctioned paganism.
Well you know the histoiry better than I, but it looks that way to me. I think it was a sign of his deepening faith and understanding.

There is the conundrum of his late baptism ... By putting off his baptism to the end, in his mind he believed he was being absolved of all of the previous sins committed during his entire life.
Yes, it was not uncommon and continued for centuries ...

Before Constantine, Christianity was an outlier, a "cult" as you put it. With Constantine, Christianity became acceptable, even fashionable. After Constantine, Christianity took over the joint.
Well, as the evidence shows, Christianity was 5-10% and expanding. It would have taken over anyway.
 
Then why the soapbox standers attempting to sway the attitudes and opinions of passers-by?
When, then or now?

Likewise, because my Father converts, doesn't mean I do. While I live in his house I will conform to his "rules," but when I go out on my own I will adopt what seems best to me.
Hmm ... maybe a bit post-modern? Or rather, the odds are that was less common in ancient societies, compared to today, but even so, that's how these things tend to work.

Why would it not be a major factor?
I don't know, take it up with Ehrman. I would have thought it would be.
We catlicks were raised to believe that martyrdom was a great recruitmen banner of the faith ... turns out not to be the case. Personally, I'd go for a social care package over dancing with lions in the Colliseum any day of the week!
 
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Point being, how does one expressly interpret "pomp and circumstance" from what you wrote? Are you referring instead to ceremony?
No, I'm pointing to the emergence of the Christian 'court' that saw itself equal to the noble and royal houses of Europe. Fine clothes, palaces, etc.

... if Christianity came from Judaism... Christians have different ceremonies, customs, traditions and holidays from the Jews to begin with?
Well these evolved over time. The Liturgy, and Christianity was liturgical before it was anything else, was founded on Jewish liturgical practice, with explicit Christic overtones, obviously, but they followed synagogue customs, eg the singing of hymns, the reading of Scripture.

Christians had their own feast day, but continued to worship alongside Jews in the synagogue for centuries, despite antagonistic outbreaks. Jews fought Christians in Rome in the 60s, but Marcion was excommunicated in 144AD, and among his heretical views was the idea that Christians should reject all Jewish practice. The gulf widened over time, especially with a demographic shift towards a Gentile church.

... yet at Nicea every effort was made to distance Christianity *from* Judaism.
That distancing was well in place prior to Nicea, and really Nicea added nothing new to the mix. Constantine did not invent Christian anti-semitism, he simply reflected what he had been taught and the prevailing attitudes of the Church.

There is nothing in the Canons of Nicea in that regard, it was already the case.

The cord was cut - finally, officially, legally, and in every other way that matters - at Nicea, and finalized at the following Council.
No, I'd say there were no cords by Nicea, they'd been cut long before then.

And we already discussed how a short time after that Christmas - as the birth of Christ - was interposed over the ancient Winter Solstice holiday of Natalis Solis Invicti
Yep. More specifically over Saturnalia than Sol Invictus, I think?

It's a smart move, really. Paganism continued long after Constantine, and a good feast like Saturnalia with its celebratory aspects would be very hard to stamp out, and a very kill-joy spirit from anyone taking it on.
 
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OK, my bad. I though you were saying that Jesus went from Jewish trouble-maker to deity in one step, through Constantine's endorsement.

Personally, I think saying "elevated to be the one and only Roman Empirical Deity" is somewhat misleading, and I wanted to clarify, for others who might have assumed otherwise, that Christ was never a deity in the Roman pantheon, and the recognition of His divinity predates the emergence of Christianity as the religion of state.


Er, it was a given in the Christian community. Constantine did not deify Christ ...
<facepalm>

I did say....multiple times..."almost 300 years." That's hardly "one step."

And again...dogma notwithstanding...Jesus was not universally recognized across the Empire as Deity *until* Constantine.
 
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Yes, it was not uncommon and continued for centuries ...
So when and why was infant baptism instituted? Or sprinkling for that matter?


Well, as the evidence shows, Christianity was 5-10% and expanding. It would have taken over anyway.
We cannot say this, it is pure conjecture.

I can just as easily surmise that had Constantine failed in his bid to unite the Empire, Maxentius who was no fan of Christians could have redoubled the effort to out them and send them to the Coliseum as kitty food. Licinius was by appearances non-plussed over the matter, and could have gone either way...in fact did just that. The Edict of Toleration by Galerius was issued in 311 from his deathbed in a failed bid to ward off a gruesome disease, effectively ending the Persecution of Diocletian (which Galerius was the primary proponent of), he died within days after. The Edict of Milan in 313 AD between Constantine and Licinius *legalized* Christianity for the first time throughout the Empire. Maximin Daia, the odd Emperor out, even more viciously Persecuted the Christians in his realm...and soon he was overthrown by Licinius. A few years passed, and Constantine and Licinius went at it, and in reprisal Licinius reneged and renewed the persecution in his realm, but was soon defeated by Constantine so that persecution never really had any time to get off the ground.

So...had Maxentius, Licinius or most especially Maximin Daia (never a serious possibility) prevailed, I don't think it is such a given that Christianity would have continued on an uninterrupted upward trend. I think as with other "cultic" religions throughout the Empire, it would have found a plateau...whether 8%, 10%, 12% I can't say any more than you...but I think the math is on my side, and the idea of inevitability is wishful thinking had Constantine not won out.

Whether another Emperor at some future date could have performed the same miracle as Constantine is anyone's guess.
 
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When, then or now?
In context...then.

We catlicks were raised to believe that martyrdom was a great recruitmen banner of the faith ... turns out not to be the case. Personally, I'd go for a social care package over dancing with lions in the Colliseum any day of the week!
I'd say the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity still serve the purpose to this day. Not to mention the Ecclesiastical arguments that raged among the Bishops in and around the Nicean Council over those who did not step up to be martyred and instead "chickened out."
 
IMO, people of the world in Jesus's time were so unfortunate due to repeated past life times worth of fruitive actions [karmic works]
that yielded only an existential life.

People of the world in Jesus's time were indeed Spiritually poor, sinful, materialistic, bereft folks, all of them!

Due to the "causeless Mercy" of Christ's death & resurrection ---folks understood there was a democratic afterlife for each & every soul.

WE ARE NOT THE MATERIAL BODY WE ARE SPIRIT SOUL
This is the first lesson of spiritual life. This is what "We" teach and expect all novices to first realise!

It's the first lesson of ashram life:
WE ARE SPIRIT SOUL WE ARE NOT THE MATERIAL BODY

When Jesus rose from the dead it taught that we are not the body but spirit soul.
--In my accessment this is the sum and substance of his buisness here on earth 2000 years ago.Thus, any simply and uneducated common person living in the Roman empire and throughout the known world at that time would be forced to reconcile that 'the soul is not temporal but transcendental, etc etc etc.,

There was more to Jesus's knowledge and mission, but he said that he could not yet reveal, at that time and place.

"We are not the body we are spirit souls"
--everyone in history up until the present is beholding to Jesus for this revelation.

This maxim is the basis for democratic thought.

Jesus's pastime was to publically cleans the sins that resulted in generations of humanity NOT KNOWING that the soul is made of spirit and the body is made of Earth (matter).

Why assume that the knowledge of the souls' after life was common concensus?
Why not concider that real atheism existed to a much higher degree then than we've ever seen in modern times. The past histories of antiquity are filled with greater hitlers than we've seen. And it despotic self-declaired-godhood-ism may be older than the first professions.

The rule of thumb has been written:
God advents and preaches, as per "Time and Place" ---as per the conditions of the persons living in that "Time and Place".

VERSUS:

Religious concepts are for the good of the tribe esp their leader.
 
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No, I'm pointing to the emergence of the Christian 'court' that saw itself equal to the noble and royal houses of Europe. Fine clothes, palaces, etc.
And yet you object to ceasaropapism? I'm confused. So somehow a fraudulent "Donation of Constantine" is preferable?

Well these evolved over time. The Liturgy, and Christianity was liturgical before it was anything else, was founded on Jewish liturgical practice, with explicit Christic overtones, obviously, but they followed synagogue customs, eg the singing of hymns, the reading of Scripture.

Christians had their own feast day, but continued to worship alongside Jews in the synagogue for centuries, despite antagonistic outbreaks. Jews fought Christians in Rome in the 60s, but Marcion was excommunicated in 144AD, and among his heretical views was the idea that Christians should reject all Jewish practice. The gulf widened over time, especially with a demographic shift towards a Gentile church.
Where is Bananabrain when you need him? I suspect a genuine scholarly Jewish POV would have something to say in this regard, that it isn't so neatly cut and dried. And considering the Herculean effort put forth at Nicea to distance *from* Judaism, I don't believe this is a given.

And we are back to a Jewish Messiah who is no longer Jewish...

That distancing was well in place prior to Nicea, and really Nicea added nothing new to the mix. Constantine did not invent Christian anti-semitism, he simply reflected what he had been taught and the prevailing attitudes of the Church.

There is nothing in the Canons of Nicea in that regard, it was already the case.
We've been over this before...Easter is *not* Jewish...Passover is Jewish. Sunday (First Day) Sabbath is *not* Jewish...Saturday (Seventh Day) Sabbath is Jewish. And then the whole "Jewish Ablutions" bit in the arguments about the...was it the Marcionites, or the Meletians? Point being Nicea went to lengths to disconnect...officially, legally, decidedly, permanently...from Judaism. Not just local attitudes and opinions...WRIT OF LAW legally binding across the Empire.

No, I'd say there were no cords by Nicea, they'd been cut long before then.

You would say that. Of course there were cords...it's called LAW, secular authority. It binds societies into cohesive whole, in context it is Pax Romana. Christianity was viewed *by some, the majority* as a threat to social cohesiveness, until the time of Constantine. It didn't happen overnight, fortunately Constantine was a long lived Emperor who had time to administer to the Empire, and during that time wrought changes that were instrumental in developing Christianity into the "Church" we know today.

More specifically over Saturnalia than Sol Invictus, I think?
Isn't the difference semantic?

It's a smart move, really. Paganism continued long after Constantine, and a good feast like Saturnalia with its celebratory aspects would be very hard to stamp out, and a very kill-joy spirit from anyone taking it on.
In a cunning, political sort of secular way to exert power and influence over the developing Church, absolutely it is a smart move!
 
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Disregard...no sense even bothering with someone who has nothing pertinent to say to the subject at hand and simply wants to showboat.
 
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