The Inquisition ...

Oh yes, that Saxony Elector Frederick was a big part of Luther's survival. He saved Luther's bacon. He wanted him so much at Wittenberg University that he was prepared to risk repercussions from the (Holy Roman) Emperor Charles V. He eventually hid Luther away in a castle, to avoid extradition. Perhaps even faked Luther's death, to get him away.

Luther was quite ready to die for his convictions.
 
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Luther, as always, carried on writing. His words were still going out to people. By the time Luther 'surfaced' again -- according to his own need to preach directly in person but against the wish of Frederick who had saved his life -- his cause was becoming so strong that Charles V and Pope Leo X realized they couldn't just kidnap him away without the risk of serious social upheaval. I think?
 
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This had turned into a richly rewarding thread for me to read through. Thanks!
 
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Happy to be of service!

Thomas said:
Ow! I don't hate Protestants ... just trying to shake of(f) generations of black propaganda, and counter the idea that the reformation was a snow-white and necessary counter to Catholicism.
For the record, I don't hate Catlickers...my Mom would slap me silly. Her Catholic Bible is one of my cherished possessions, one of several Bibles in my study (I also have her Father's Baptist Bible). I had never heard the term "black propaganda" before, had to look it up, frankly nothing I'm familiar with. I was born and raised in Southern California...there is a significant portion of the religious population there that is Catholic, a considerably higher percentage than other places I've lived. Having said that, I've been inside a Catholic Church I think 4 times that I recall...a wedding, the baptism of my step-sister, one service when I was a child, and while I don't have any memory of it...I was baptised as an infant.

I'm not sure where the "idea that the reformation was a snow-white and necessary counter" comes from, but historically *any* genuine counter to any authority is NEVER snow white, that doesn't make it any the less necessary. People who follow the rules don't get written about in history books...perhaps that says something about rules, and who gets to write them. ;) The counter to Catholic dogma, particularly the stuff added on during the Holy Roman Empire period, began as an intellectual challenge...by all accounts. The Church, being in position of unquestionable authority, simply threw its weight around, often successfully...John Huss is but one of MANY executed with the full knowledge and complete endorsement of the Vatican (and it wasn't for witchcraft). Luther, perhaps because he was an insider, perhaps because of his early scholastic training as a lawyer, perhaps because he had ingratiated himself to at least one noble Prince (and no doubt countless others, many of whom were intellectuals from the University he taught at), or likely some fortuitous combination of these things, was able to successfully expose and counter the superfluous teachings rampant in the Church at that time.
 
The idea of Luther deliberately ingratiating himself to anyone is so alien to Luther's nature as to be a complete contradiction in terms. He was quite a handful for Frederick. He was also very brave and an individual of absolute integrity. He took on a huge amount of work. He could be very rude. But I believe he was wrong on some important issues.

A baby or two went out with the bathwater, imo.
 
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In regard to the Inquisition however, we can see that the Church's practice of following a prior legal process to determine whether or not a heresy was being promulgated, the allowance of the petitioner to defend his position, and the allowance to recant, underpinned the Church's response to Luther's 95 Theses. Bearing in mind that in the secular world, it was enough for whoever to speak against authority for that authority, under the rule of 'might is right' to snuff the opposition out at its first appearance... so the treatment of Luther does in fact point to the legality of the Church in pursuit of 'justice' that was an exemplar of good process, when compared to contemporary methods of dealing with disputes?

Other matters take us into areas of theological disputation.
 
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From Myths & Facts Re: Tetzel & Indulgences

An indulgence is a remission of the temporal penalties of sin, and as such lies within the gift of the Church according to Scripture, the ability to 'bind and loose' (Matthew 18:18; John 20:23). Paul does just that (2 Corinthians 2:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:3-5).

The Council of Trent, following the Fourth Lateran (1215), Lyons (1245 and 1274) and Vienne (1311-12), condemned "the wicked abuse of quaestors of alms" and prohibited the selling of indulgences, thus pre-dating Luther on this point, while retaining the orthodox doctrine itself as valid.

Whether Tetzel was a bad man, or just somewhat excessive, or a poor theologian, we don't know, but certainly his sales pitch went beyond orthodox teaching.

Luther's plaintive cry:
"Why doesn’t the pope build the basilica of St. Peter out of his own money? He is richer than Croesus. He would do better to sell St. Peter’s and give the money to the poor folk who are being fleeced by the hawkers of indulgences. If the pope knew the exactions of these vendors, he would rather that St. Peter’s should lie in ashes than that it should be built out of the blood and hide of his sheep."

Is somewhat disingenuous. Luther was not himself altogether correct in matters of money and property, later rationalising his position:
"If they are not the church but the devil’s whore that has not remained faithful to Christ, then it is irrefutably and thoroughly established that they should not possess church property."
That he chose to live in a former convent, rather than sell it and distribute the money, speaks for itself.

Tetzel’s teaching regarding indulgences for the living was orthodox, but his teaching (and emotional arm-twisting) on the dead was not, and he was condemned by Cardinal Cajetan, the same cardinal who challenged Luther.

Luther might well have been annoyed at indulgences, but his theses went well beyond that — including scurrilous attacks on Tetzel's character. Nor, now that Luther's diaries are in the public domain, is he proof against the accusation of hypocrisy regarding immorality in the Church and the clergy ... suffice to say that he was up there with the worst of them!

Within a couple of years Luther’s focus had shifted to questions of church authority per se, his view of indulgences was shaped by a rather pessimistic and fatalistic far-right-of-Augustine theology. (In my opinion. I do not take to the idea that man can do nothing towards his own salvation, nor do I much like his very unfavourable view of human nature and its absolutely fallen state, but taking his own failings into account, I suppose that's hardly surprising.) By then Tetzel was on his deathbed. Luther wrote a letter of consolation to his former adversary that the debate over indulgences was never directed at him personally.
 
Inquisition aside —

Union with Christ: The new Finnish Interpretation of Luther:
This brief but rich book introduces English speaking scholars to ground breaking research from Helsinki University that casts Martin Luther’s soteriology in a new light. The 'new Finnish interpretation of Luther' finds the essence of his doctrine of salvation not in forensic justification God declaring us just solely by virtue of Christ’s sacrifice but in something more akin to the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of theosis, or deification.
Interesting ...
 
The idea of Luther deliberately ingratiating himself to anyone is so alien to Luther's nature as to be a complete contradiction in terms. He was quite a handful for Frederick. He was also very brave and an individual of absolute integrity. He took on a huge amount of work. He could be very rude. But I believe he was wrong on some important issues.

A baby or two went out with the bathwater, imo.
I agree.

Luther strikes me as a very intelligent man, but also self-absorbed and singularly focused on his personal salvation...and that likely rubbed some people the wrong way. I do think the deeper he got into what he found himself in, he couldn't stop digging and had no choice but to dig even deeper...perhaps a victim of his own success?
 
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From Myths & Facts Re: Tetzel & Indulgences

An indulgence is a remission of the temporal penalties of sin, and as such lies within the gift of the Church according to Scripture, the ability to 'bind and loose' (Matthew 18:18; John 20:23). Paul does just that (2 Corinthians 2:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:3-5).

The Council of Trent, following the Fourth Lateran (1215), Lyons (1245 and 1274) and Vienne (1311-12), condemned "the wicked abuse of quaestors of alms" and prohibited the selling of indulgences, thus pre-dating Luther on this point, while retaining the orthodox doctrine itself as valid.

Whether Tetzel was a bad man, or just somewhat excessive, or a poor theologian, we don't know, but certainly his sales pitch went beyond orthodox teaching.

Luther's plaintive cry:
"Why doesn’t the pope build the basilica of St. Peter out of his own money? He is richer than Croesus. He would do better to sell St. Peter’s and give the money to the poor folk who are being fleeced by the hawkers of indulgences. If the pope knew the exactions of these vendors, he would rather that St. Peter’s should lie in ashes than that it should be built out of the blood and hide of his sheep."

Is somewhat disingenuous. Luther was not himself altogether correct in matters of money and property, later rationalising his position:
"If they are not the church but the devil’s whore that has not remained faithful to Christ, then it is irrefutably and thoroughly established that they should not possess church property."
That he chose to live in a former convent, rather than sell it and distribute the money, speaks for itself.

Tetzel’s teaching regarding indulgences for the living was orthodox, but his teaching (and emotional arm-twisting) on the dead was not, and he was condemned by Cardinal Cajetan, the same cardinal who challenged Luther.

Luther might well have been annoyed at indulgences, but his theses went well beyond that — including scurrilous attacks on Tetzel's character. Nor, now that Luther's diaries are in the public domain, is he proof against the accusation of hypocrisy regarding immorality in the Church and the clergy ... suffice to say that he was up there with the worst of them!

Within a couple of years Luther’s focus had shifted to questions of church authority per se, his view of indulgences was shaped by a rather pessimistic and fatalistic far-right-of-Augustine theology. (In my opinion. I do not take to the idea that man can do nothing towards his own salvation, nor do I much like his very unfavourable view of human nature and its absolutely fallen state, but taking his own failings into account, I suppose that's hardly surprising.) By then Tetzel was on his deathbed. Luther wrote a letter of consolation to his former adversary that the debate over indulgences was never directed at him personally.

Yes but the fact selling indulgences (for the living) was within the Catholic Church's remit to 'bind and loose' does not justify selling entry to paradise for money.

Luther writes of a dying man refusing the last rites, saying he didnt need them, waving a letter. It made him furious. No amount of theological tautology can ever make this right.

No-one says Luther was perfect.

But the attempt by the Catholic Church to vilify his character isn't edifying.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7260

... Luther was wrong in declaring a reformation to be necessary?

I do not deny that a reformation was necessary. There were many abuses to be corrected. But Luther did not introduce a movement of real reform. He made prevalent abuses an excuse to leave the Church altogether, instead of remaining in it and trying to effect the conversion of its lax members to better ways. Moreover, he retained many of the very abuses, merely seeking to justify them by denying that they were wrong, and sanctioned yet further departures from the standards of true Christianity.


This is scraping the bottom of the barrel stuff, imo. I'd like to know what's actually in those diaries.

Still -- I'm out of my depth, as I said ...
 
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I agree.

Luther strikes me as a very intelligent man, but also self-absorbed and singularly focused on his personal salvation...and that likely rubbed some people the wrong way. I do think the deeper he got into what he found himself in, he couldn't stop digging and had no choice but to dig even deeper...perhaps a victim of his own success?

He became forced to pronounce on too many issues. He made mistakes and he could be extremely rude about people. He was too honest -- perhaps outspoken is a better word -- to find himself in such a position. Imo. (Of being required to pronounce on so many hundreds of fine issues.)
 
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Part of which requires that you must be on the path to be a theologian?!?!
To explain it, yes.

But it's fundamental to the Orthodox and the Catholic.
The lay believer will probably express it in simpler and more sentimental terms.
 
Yes but the fact selling indulgences (for the living) was within the Catholic Church's remit to 'bind and loose' does not justify selling entry to paradise for money.
No it doesn't, and nor would the Catholic Church say anyone can buy their way in.

Luther writes of a dying man refusing the last rites, saying he didn't need them, waving a letter of indulgences. No amount of theological tautology can ever make this right.
Nor does any amount of conviction that one doesn't need forgiveness.

There's a saying in the Church that the only sin beyond forgiveness is denial of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean a theological refutation, it means that if man rejects the offer of salvation, then God will not force it on him.

Of course, we can get into all many of psychological debate about why and wherefore, but that's us. God knows the heart.

No-one says Luther was perfect.
I think scholars are generally agreed he was some way from that. Everything he saw wrong with the Church, he saw wrong with himself ...

But the attempt by the Catholic Church to vilify his character isn't edifying.
Probably not, but then the truth sometimes isn't.

It seems Luther suffered profound psychological problems, possibly as a result of his upbringing:
https://www.claremont.org/crb/article/martin-luthers-reformation/

His self-loathing coloured and distorted his outlook and his understanding.

Certainly I'll accept the author of the article posted is outspoken and partisan — but the fact remains that Luther did not seek a true 'reformation', he attacked the Church as the source of a teaching on God he could not bring himself to accept because of his low self esteem. He was infatuated with his own sin, and that's a tragic road to walk ...
 
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Certainly I'll accept the author of the article posted is outspoken and partisan — but the fact remains that Luther did not seek a true 'reformation', he attacked the Church as the source of a teaching on God he could not bring himself to accept because of his low self esteem. He was infatuated with his own sin, and that's a tragic road to walk ...
Some say the same as Paul...

Bottom line...he disagreed...he spent the time to dilineate his disagreements....people agreed...more people agreed...and today we have this thing called choice, no governmental agency telling us what church we must go...or if we must go at all.

No inquisition calling us heretics... no forced catechism... From folks I've spoken this has caused recently for the Church to teach out of the Bible and not their abridged book that was the only thing they saw when they were children. All they used to get was a book which contained some scripture and then the interpretation/explanation contained within...when they became adults and began reading the bible and concordences on their own they saw things differently and are happy today that in Catholic schools and Catechism programs the bible is used.

Benefit of Luther?
 
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No it doesn't, and nor would the Catholic Church say anyone can buy their way in.


Nor does any amount of conviction that one doesn't need forgiveness.

There's a saying in the Church that the only sin beyond forgiveness is denial of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean a theological refutation, it means that if man rejects the offer of salvation, then God will not force it on him.

Of course, we can get into all many of psychological debate about why and wherefore, but that's us. God knows the heart.


I think scholars are generally agreed he was some way from that. Everything he saw wrong with the Church, he saw wrong with himself ...


Probably not, but then the truth sometimes isn't.

It seems Luther suffered profound psychological problems, possibly as a result of his upbringing:
https://www.claremont.org/crb/article/martin-luthers-reformation/

His self-loathing coloured and distorted his outlook and his understanding.

Certainly I'll accept the author of the article posted is outspoken and partisan — but the fact remains that Luther did not seek a true 'reformation', he attacked the Church as the source of a teaching on God he could not bring himself to accept because of his low self esteem. He was infatuated with his own sin, and that's a tragic road to walk ...

Christ's enigmatic saying about the only unforgiveable sin being against the Holy Spirit was when the Pharisees accused him of casting out devils by the power of satan.

Many great men have had psychological problems. Abraham Lincoln was a depressive, etc.

Perhaps Martin Luther WAS simply outraged by some of the practices of the Catholic Church of his time. No analyses required?

But it's going to be wiser for me to stay silent and just read what gets written here, because I really do not have the depth of study necessary in this sort of theological debate.

EDIT: Sorry: great people have great faults too?
 
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Some say the same as Paul...

Bottom line...he disagreed...he spent the time to dilineate his disagreements....people agreed...more people agreed...and today we have this thing called choice, no governmental agency telling us what church we must go...or if we must go at all.

No inquisition calling us heretics... no forced catechism... From folks I've spoken this has caused recently for the Church to teach out of the Bible and not their abridged book that was the only thing they saw when they were children. All they used to get was a book which contained some scripture and then the interpretation/explanation contained within...when they became adults and began reading the bible and concordences on their own they saw things differently and are happy today that in Catholic schools and Catechism programs the bible is used.

Benefit of Luther?
Last words from me is that people couldn't read Latin or Greek. The vernacular Bibles enabled them to read it for themselves. And many people found this a whole lot too much reading. They still preferred to get their teaching from the Church.
 
No it doesn't, and nor would the Catholic Church say anyone can buy their way in.
Perhaps I fail to see the difference. From where I sit that is precisely what the Church was selling in Luther's day.

It seems Luther suffered profound psychological problems, possibly as a result of his upbringing:
https://www.claremont.org/crb/article/martin-luthers-reformation/

His self-loathing coloured and distorted his outlook and his understanding.

Certainly I'll accept the author of the article posted is outspoken and partisan — but the fact remains that Luther did not seek a true 'reformation', he attacked the Church as the source of a teaching on God he could not bring himself to accept because of his low self esteem. He was infatuated with his own sin, and that's a tragic road to walk ...
Ah, so the Reformation is essentially trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear?

Shall we list the failings of the various Popes leading up to, during, and after Luther?

How many Popes were from the Medici Banking family? Should serve well as a clue to where the Vatican's heart truly lay...$$$

"The Medici were a powerful and influential Florentine family from the 13th to 17th century. There were four popes who were related to the Medici and each other.[2]

  • Pope Leo X (December 11, 1475 – December 1, 1521), born Giovanni de' Medici, was pope from 1513 to his death.[3]
  • Pope Clement VII (May 26, 1478 – September 25, 1534), born Giulio di Giuliano de' Medici, was a cardinal from 1513 to 1523 and was pope from 1523 to 1534.[4]
  • Pope Pius IV (31 March 1499 – December 9, 1565), born Giovanni Angelo Medici, was pope from 1559 to 1565. However, he was only distantly related to the other Medici Popes.[5]
  • Pope Leo XI (June 2, 1535 – April 27, 1605), born Alessandro Ottaviano de' Medici, was pope from April 1, 1605, to April 27 of the same year.[6]"
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes_from_the_Medici_family

How about Pope Alexander VI, whose Papal reign was from 1492-1503:

"Had a long affair with Vannozza dei Cattanei while still a priest, but before he became pope; and by her had his illegitimate children Cesare Borgia, Giovanni Borgia, Gioffre Borgia, and Lucrezia. A later mistress, Giulia Farnese, was the sister of Alessandro Farnese, and she gave birth to a daughter (Laura) while Alexander was in his 60s and reigning as pope.[40] Alexander fathered at least seven, and possibly as many as ten illegitimate children, and did much to promote his family's interests – using his offspring to build alliances with a number of important dynasties.[41] He appointed Giovanni Borgia as Captain General of the Church, and made Cesare a Cardinal of the Church – also creating independent duchies for each of them out of papal lands. "
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes

How many Popes were from the Borgia family? (and how often are the excesses of their reigns recounted? - Banquet of Chestnuts?)

"The Borgias, also known as the Borjas, were a European papal family of Spanish origin that became prominent during the Renaissance. The family produced three popes of the Catholic Church:

  • Pope Callixtus III (born Alfons de Borja; 1378–1458) – served as pope from 8 April 1455 until his death on 6 August 1458
  • Pope Alexander VI (born Rodrigo Lanzol Borgia; 1431–1503) – served as pope from 11 August 1492 until his death on 18 August 1503; his maternal uncle was Pope Callixtus III
  • Pope Innocent X (born Giovanni Battista Pamphilj (or Pamphili); 1574–1655) – served as pope from 15 September 1644 until his death on 7 January 1655; he was the great-great-great-grandson of Pope Alexander VI, but his surname was not Borgia"
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes_from_the_Borgia_family

How many Popes sired illegitimate children...while in office (in defiance of the Second Lateran Council of 1139)? How many kept concubines and consorts? No need to take my word, all of this is exceptionally easy to research. And while researching I'm certain other matters of intrigue tied directly to the Vatican will undoubtedly make themselves clearly apparent.

Even a blind pig can find a truffle now and then. For Luther's failings, he brought more to the wayward sinners longing to reach out to G!d than the Vatican offered at that time...

Seems to me G!d has never had a *perfect* man to champion his cause...Adam fell from grace, Noah was a drunk, none of the Apostles was perfect, Constantine had his faults...yet you demand Luther be perfect in order for his arguments to bear merit? Seems to me a bit of a dual standard, and convenient application when it suits. <sigh>

So if Luther's character is worthy of assassination, in order to be scholastically fair, you've opened the Popes to the same set of standards...and every single one of them will fall, by the same rules of engagement.
 
Sorry, I sound so rude: of course I would try to respond to dialogue directed specifically in my direction. I'm just not hoping to keep sticking my voice in, where I'm not too sure of what I know, lol?

Great thread. I learn such a lot from this site ...
 
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