We seed and give life to children, we do not own them and they have free will. We love them, often unconditionally, and we correct or advise them when we believe it for their own benefit when they choose to listen, and then we learn from them ..
DOES GOD LEARN FROM MEN?
- Thread starter RJM
- Start date
As above, so below: through a glass darkly.
The spirit/soul experience may be described but not defined by scripture, and perhaps it is a huge and perhaps even fatal failing to ignore this truth?
The spirit/soul experience may be described but not defined by scripture, and perhaps it is a huge and perhaps even fatal failing to ignore this truth?
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EdgyDolmen
Well-Known Member
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I generally enjoy your posts. I suppose there are exceptions to everything.
I have for many, many months elected to read and not post.
Congratulations! You got me.
My only remark --- not a good op post!
Scripture? Write a book RJM...
I have for many, many months elected to read and not post.
Congratulations! You got me.
My only remark --- not a good op post!
Scripture? Write a book RJM...
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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TEXT:
The embodied spirit, master of the city of his body,
does not create activities, nor does he induce people to act,
nor does he create the fruits of action.
All this is enacted by the modes of material nature.
Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone's sinful or pious activities.
Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the
ignorance which covers their real knowledge.
COMMENTARY
The living entity is one in nature with the Supreme Lord, as distinguished from matter,
which is another nature—called inferior—of the Lord.
Somehow, the superior nature, the living entity, has been in contact with
material nature since time immemorial. The temporary body or material
dwelling place which he obtains is the cause of varieties of activities and
their resultant reactions.
Living in such a conditional atmosphere, one suffers the results of the activities
of the body by identifying himself (in ignorance) with the body.
It is ignorance acquired from time immemorial that is the cause of bodily
suffering and distress. As soon as the living entity becomes aloof from the
activities of the body, he becomes free from the reactions as well.
As long as he is in the city of body, he appears to be the master of it,
but actually he is neither its proprietor nor controller of its actions and reactions.
He is simply in the midst of the material ocean, struggling for existence.
The waves of the ocean are tossing him, and he has no control over them.
His best solution is to get out of the water by transcendental Krishna-yoga consciousness.
That alone will save him from all turmoil.
The Sanskrit word vibhuh means the Supreme Lord who is full of unlimited knowledge,
riches, strength, fame, beauty and renunciation. He is always satisfied in Himself,
undisturbed by sinful or pious activities. He does not create a particular situation
for any living entity, but the living entity, bewildered by ignorance, desires to be put
into certain conditions of life, and thereby his chain of action and reaction begins.
A living entity is, by superior nature, full of knowledge. Nevertheless, he is prone
to be influenced by ignorance due to his limited power.
The Lord is omnipotent, but the living entity is not. The Lord is vibhu, or omniscient,
but the living entity is anu, or atomic. Because he is a living soul, he has the capacity
to desire by his free will. Such desire is fulfilled only by the omnipotent Lord.
And so, when the living entity is bewildered in his desires, the Lord allows him to
fulfill those desires, but the Lord is never responsible for the actions and reactions
of the particular situation which may be desired. Being in a bewildered condition,
therefore, the embodied soul identifies himself with the circumstantial material body
and becomes subjected to the temporary misery and happiness of life.
The Lord is the constant companion of the living entity as Paramatma, or the Supersoul,
and therefore He can understand the desires of the individual soul, as one can
smell the flavor of a flower by being near it. Desire is a subtle form of conditioning
of the living entity. The Lord fulfills his desire as he deserves:
Man proposes and God disposes.
The individual is not, therefore, omnipotent in fulfilling his desires.
The Lord, however, can fulfill all desires, and the Lord, being neutral to
everyone, does not interfere with the desires of the minute independant
living entities. However, when one desires Krishna, the Lord takes special
care and encourages one to desire in such a way that one can attain to
Him and be eternally happy. The Vedic hymn therefore declares:
"The Lord engages the living entity in pious activities so he may be elevated.
The Lord engages him in impious activities so he may go to hell.
The living entity is completely dependant in his distress and happiness.
By the will of the Supreme he can go to heaven or hell, as a cloud is driven by the air."
Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krishna-yoga
consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is
constitutionally eternal, blissful and cognizant, due to the littleness of his
existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is
thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living
entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence.
The Vedanta-sutras also confirm this:
"The Lord neither hates nor likes anyone, though He appears to."
[From Bhagavad-gita ---TEXT & COMMENTARY by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami]
The embodied spirit, master of the city of his body,
does not create activities, nor does he induce people to act,
nor does he create the fruits of action.
All this is enacted by the modes of material nature.
Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone's sinful or pious activities.
Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the
ignorance which covers their real knowledge.
COMMENTARY
The living entity is one in nature with the Supreme Lord, as distinguished from matter,
which is another nature—called inferior—of the Lord.
Somehow, the superior nature, the living entity, has been in contact with
material nature since time immemorial. The temporary body or material
dwelling place which he obtains is the cause of varieties of activities and
their resultant reactions.
Living in such a conditional atmosphere, one suffers the results of the activities
of the body by identifying himself (in ignorance) with the body.
It is ignorance acquired from time immemorial that is the cause of bodily
suffering and distress. As soon as the living entity becomes aloof from the
activities of the body, he becomes free from the reactions as well.
As long as he is in the city of body, he appears to be the master of it,
but actually he is neither its proprietor nor controller of its actions and reactions.
He is simply in the midst of the material ocean, struggling for existence.
The waves of the ocean are tossing him, and he has no control over them.
His best solution is to get out of the water by transcendental Krishna-yoga consciousness.
That alone will save him from all turmoil.
The Sanskrit word vibhuh means the Supreme Lord who is full of unlimited knowledge,
riches, strength, fame, beauty and renunciation. He is always satisfied in Himself,
undisturbed by sinful or pious activities. He does not create a particular situation
for any living entity, but the living entity, bewildered by ignorance, desires to be put
into certain conditions of life, and thereby his chain of action and reaction begins.
A living entity is, by superior nature, full of knowledge. Nevertheless, he is prone
to be influenced by ignorance due to his limited power.
The Lord is omnipotent, but the living entity is not. The Lord is vibhu, or omniscient,
but the living entity is anu, or atomic. Because he is a living soul, he has the capacity
to desire by his free will. Such desire is fulfilled only by the omnipotent Lord.
And so, when the living entity is bewildered in his desires, the Lord allows him to
fulfill those desires, but the Lord is never responsible for the actions and reactions
of the particular situation which may be desired. Being in a bewildered condition,
therefore, the embodied soul identifies himself with the circumstantial material body
and becomes subjected to the temporary misery and happiness of life.
The Lord is the constant companion of the living entity as Paramatma, or the Supersoul,
and therefore He can understand the desires of the individual soul, as one can
smell the flavor of a flower by being near it. Desire is a subtle form of conditioning
of the living entity. The Lord fulfills his desire as he deserves:
Man proposes and God disposes.
The individual is not, therefore, omnipotent in fulfilling his desires.
The Lord, however, can fulfill all desires, and the Lord, being neutral to
everyone, does not interfere with the desires of the minute independant
living entities. However, when one desires Krishna, the Lord takes special
care and encourages one to desire in such a way that one can attain to
Him and be eternally happy. The Vedic hymn therefore declares:
"The Lord engages the living entity in pious activities so he may be elevated.
The Lord engages him in impious activities so he may go to hell.
The living entity is completely dependant in his distress and happiness.
By the will of the Supreme he can go to heaven or hell, as a cloud is driven by the air."
Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krishna-yoga
consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is
constitutionally eternal, blissful and cognizant, due to the littleness of his
existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is
thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living
entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence.
The Vedanta-sutras also confirm this:
"The Lord neither hates nor likes anyone, though He appears to."
[From Bhagavad-gita ---TEXT & COMMENTARY by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami]
Ok. But as the Sacred (Heaven) descends through nature into the profane and finally to the lowest depth of gravity (Hell) -- what is the process of transference? Isn't there ever a mutual energy transference? Do angels learn from men?
Learning (growing) -- obviously not purely material growth -- is probably the only sure and true reward of existence?
Learning (growing) -- obviously not purely material growth -- is probably the only sure and true reward of existence?
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Of course, but the Supreme Godhead is ever unreachable, even to the highest angel. We can learn much of spiritual value from children and animals and from the old and sick and poor, etc?
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Does God learn from men? Can't say for sure, but I did hear a Pastor say something interesting once. The gist of it was, when Jesus was born in the flesh and I suppose this would apply to Krishna as well, despite their divinity, they still had to be taught the basics. Walking, talking, etc....
Thanks for responding.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favour with God and men.
But I've been thinking about the subject since posting. The Holy penetrates the profane but is not tainted by it. Wisdom is not spoiled by contact with stupidity.
The profane may be uplifted by contact with the sacred, but the sacred is not polluted by contact with the profane.
So I apologise if I caused offence to anyone. It was posted as a genuine question.
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The 'bad' parts of scripture give some people an excuse to discard the whole book. It's a deliberately disingenuous attempt to throw out the baby with the bathwater -- to taint the holy by trying to mix it up with the profane. But it is the baby that matters, not the bathwater.
Thus scripture describes but should not be used to define God.
God seems to have moved on from the Old Testament to the New; as people become more civilized and perhaps more universal and less tribal, God no longer demands adulterers be stoned to death, etc. Many of these old laws were there to preserve tribal unity against destruction by its enemies.
The personal experience of contact with the holy is the purpose of what scripture aims to achieve. Imo.
Referring mostly to the Abrahamic God here.
(post edited)
Thus scripture describes but should not be used to define God.
God seems to have moved on from the Old Testament to the New; as people become more civilized and perhaps more universal and less tribal, God no longer demands adulterers be stoned to death, etc. Many of these old laws were there to preserve tribal unity against destruction by its enemies.
The personal experience of contact with the holy is the purpose of what scripture aims to achieve. Imo.
Referring mostly to the Abrahamic God here.
(post edited)
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Those who really surprise me are those who argue for 'analogy' and 'metaphor' on the one hand, then insist on interpreting a given text absolutely literally on the other, without reference to context. Then go on to confuse genres, etc. As far as I'm aware, there's no 'error' or 'contradiction' in Scripture which cannot be resolved with a little learning and insight.
Hmm ... not so sure about that. Probably right though. I would simply add God should not be defined without reference to Scripture.
Well the extension of God as the private deity of a particular people, to the God of all, was revolutionary thinking, and staggering to think that St Peter (not the sharpest tool in the box) and St Paul (a zelot) should realise that before anyone else.
again, reservations. I think that still stands in some Islamic states, and that kind of thinking was the norm in Europe up to a couple of centuries ago. I don't think you can point that change to the New Testament?
And they still do. All three Abrahamics prefer you to marry 'within the fold', for example. In the Christian Tradition, the sole purpose of marriage is the procreation of children. Love doesn't really get a look in.
I think that's what Scripture is — a reflection upon that experience. I think it's man that learns, not God. That's what Abrahamic Scripture is.
Well perhaps the 'word' of scripture should not be used to 'define' God. God may change his mind. God may not be defineable. God certainly may not appreciate being restricted to act and appear as required by the particular book of scripture, although certainly the scriptures may partially demonstrate and partially describe God.
And Christians who stone adulterers etc, are not following the New Testament? Jesus clearly told people not to judge the sin of others. To leave that to God, and to remove the beam from one's own eye.
Of course the laws of the land are to be judged by the judges of the land. But the teachings of Christ may not be used in this world to justify anything other than mercy and forgiveness, because the teachings of Christ -- and of Krishna and Buddha -- are spiritual laws, often not meant for this world?
EDIT: So the question arises of whether followers of God should surrender up those who break the law to the temporal authotities? It's the issue that's come up with the sex abuse scandals?
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Quite. The perennial problem here is the assumption that the meaning of Scripture is self-evident. No Scripture can really be comprehended without access to the Traditional commentaries which provide the hermeneutic keys.
I tend to think not. If God is outside time/space, then there is no 'new' or 'surprise', etc?
Ultimately, no ... but God must be rational, else religion is roulette.
Oh, quite.
I tend to think that Revelation is Revolutionary — it upsets all the applecarts.
Then what happens, as time passes, is the 'old order' re-establishes itself, as much as it can, and often seeks to validate itself by claiming Scriptural affirmation.
I find it amazing that this in the cosmos contains not only the book explains everything but also dozens of them
I meant to say in this tiny corner of a vast cosmos,on this itty bitty Planet out of Millions
In Christian scripture it's expressed by the fact that Christ suffered and actually died and after death descended into hell (where none that enters ever leaves) and yet emerges in holiness. A shining light forever. God reaches everywhere.
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I remember a comment by a tutor on my degree course that it was worth bearing in mind that when Christ walked the earth, the Second Person was not absent from the Trinity. There wasn't a 30-odd year interlude when it was a Binary (Father-Holy Spirit) because the Son had surrendered/divested Himself of His Divinity.
The descent is referred to only obliquely, in 1 Peter 4:6 "the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God" and Ephesians 4:8-9 "Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive; he gave gifts to men. Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
The 'Harrowing of Hell' is seen in the Tradition as the triumph over death, when Christ descended into hell to bring out the just who had died since the beginning of time.
In discussions, I suggested that Christ didn't 'just' go down into hell, but rather occupied the whole cosmos (which triggered the comment above); that Christ is immanently present everywhere.
The descent is referred to only obliquely, in 1 Peter 4:6 "the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God" and Ephesians 4:8-9 "Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive; he gave gifts to men. Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
The 'Harrowing of Hell' is seen in the Tradition as the triumph over death, when Christ descended into hell to bring out the just who had died since the beginning of time.
In discussions, I suggested that Christ didn't 'just' go down into hell, but rather occupied the whole cosmos (which triggered the comment above); that Christ is immanently present everywhere.
So these just people were suffering in hell until Jesus saved them?
Well that's it: Is God experiencing 'himself' through his own creation? If we truly have free-will, then our actions cannot be known in advance, even by God?
EDIT: It's philosophical rambling, really. God must be unlimited by time and space. Unknowable. But is God 'experiencing' creation -- through creatures: through us and through angels -- with all that experience implies?
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