DOES GOD LEARN FROM MEN?

[Thomas]

So these just people were suffering in hell until Jesus saved them?

The question of 'just' does not really apply. The effect of the Fall encompasses all.

One's view rather depends on whether one holds a Latin or Greek view of Original Sin.

The Latin view is that we are all culpable of the sin of Adam, therefore we are born in a state of personal sin and thus justifiably condemned before the get-go. The Greek view is more nuanced, that we are all born suffering the effects of the sin of Adam, so it's a bit like an hereditary disability, rather than individual immediate culpability.

Lastly, the eschaton is not a temporal state — time is a condition of our physical universe.

So 'The Harrowing of Hell' is an analogous teaching to indicate that the triumph of the Cross applies across time, rather than applying after the physical event, suggesting those who died before Christ are left to suffer.

 

[Thomas]

Well that's it: Is God experiencing 'himself' through his own creation? If we truly have free-will, then our actions cannot be known in advance, even by God?

Well they can, it's rather that we are as free to make the wrong as we are to make the right, decision.

But is God 'experiencing' creation -- through creatures: through us and through angels -- with all that experience implies?

I'd say no, 'experience' is a very anthropomorphic term.

Rather than creating us that He might experience what we experience, I favour the notion that He created us that we might experience what He experiences.

To experience something new is to learn, and the supposition then is God is deficient in some way, which metaphysically is a non-starter?

 

[wil]

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

 

[Thomas]

Ah, the inspired genius of the sacred scribe. I rather think s/he's putting words into God's mouth, in response to Gen 3:8
"And when they heard the voice of the Lord God ... Adam and his wife hid themselves ..."

 

[RJM]

Well they can, it's rather that we are as free to make the wrong as we are to make the right, decision.


I'd say no, 'experience' is a very anthropomorphic term.

Rather than creating us that He might experience what we experience, I favour the notion that He created us that we might experience what He experiences.

To experience something new is to learn, and the supposition then is God is deficient in some way, which metaphysically is a non-starter?

Well they can, it's rather that we are as free to make the wrong as we are to make the right, decision.

Aren't there some Christian groups who believe that God has already chosen a certain number of souls who will enter heaven? They are known and chosen in advance? This would be a consequence of God knowing (in advance) what choices we will make?

Of course, though, time is only a limited natural/earthly ' concept'.

To experience something new is to learn, and the supposition then is God is deficient in some way, which metaphysically is a non-starter?

God is beyond even the highest angelic being. The unreachable perfection. In Christ God manifests to human beings as human. (The 'overself' between man and God.)?

 

[wil]

They are known and chosen in advance?

That would eliminate a need to be good in this life.

Salvation is what Christianity sells

 

[RJM]

That would eliminate a need to be good in this life.

Salvation is what Christianity sells

Salvation is what Christianity sells

Charlatans and militaries abuse Christ.

Perhaps many well-meaning evangelical crusaders do it too.

 

[RJM]

@Thomas

To experience something new is to learn, and the supposition then is God is deficient in some way, which metaphysically is a non-starter?

This is just philosophical. But if God knows everything we will ever do or say, we are just puppets?

 

[Ahanu]

Rather than creating us that He might experience what we experience, I favour the notion that He created us that we might experience what He experiences.

I also favor this notion!

@Thomas

To experience something new is to learn, and the supposition then is God is deficient in some way, which metaphysically is a non-starter?

This is just philosophical. But if God knows everything we will ever do or say, we are just puppets?

Interesting discussion here. God as puppet master. What is God's relationship to time? Is God a determiner (puppet master) or a participant (musical conductor)? This seems to be what you are discussing here. Hmm . . .

 

[Ahanu]

 

[Thomas]

Aren't there some Christian groups who believe that God has already chosen a certain number of souls who will enter heaven? They are known and chosen in advance?

Yes. It all revolves around the idea that if God's knowledge is omniscient, then one's destiny/fate is pre-determined, or at least pre-destined.

Again, this fails to take in the idea that God might allow man to exercise the free will He had endowed him with, even at his own expense.

Of course, though, time is only a limited natural/earthly ' concept'.

Absolutely.

God is beyond even the highest angelic being.

That's the problem in talking about God. He's in a class of His own, there's nothing else to compare Him to, other than to say, 'more than/better than that' kinda thing. We can assert that God is 'rational', basically because we have to! The cosmos is rational, after all. Take rationality out of the equation and science falls flat on its face, for a start.

The unreachable perfection.

Yep. We cannot reach it, but we can participate by invitation.

In Christ God manifests to human beings as human.

Yep.

(The 'overself' between man and God.)?

Not sure how you read that? Need to be cautious about some mid-way demiurge, more than man, less than God?

 

[RJM]

... Not sure how you read that? Need to be cautious about some mid-way demiurge, more than man, less than God?

No I don't mean that. God as Man. As opposed to as a fish or a sparrow or as a neutron star. The Christ. The bridge between God and Man. In that sense 'no-one comes to the Father but by Me.'

The Christ manifest as Jesus?

 

[RJM]

@Thomas I apologise for not responding to your points one-by-one. I work mostly with a phone, which makes a lot of cutting & pasting difficult, and anyway I usually agree with most of what you say.

Yep. We cannot reach it [the unreachable perfection], but we can participate by invitation.

'To see ... more clearly ... day by day'

The idea of one Heaven for the souls of the righteous may be a little more complicated in reality: all sorts of heavens and hells and dimensions. Many mansions?

Many religious groups forbid followers from even thinking about this sort of stuff by restricting everything to their own particular interpretation of what's written in the spiritual 'instruction manual'.

EDIT: It's what turns people away. It does damage. Imo. Especially in this age of scientific unravelling of the processes of nature.

 

[RJM]

... Interesting discussion here. God as puppet master. What is God's relationship to time? Is God a determiner (puppet master) or a participant (musical conductor)? This seems to be what you are discussing here. Hmm . . .

None of which I feel safe to even venture response.

Lord, my heart is not lifted up,
my eyes are not raised too high;
I do not occupy myself with things
too great and too marvellous for me.
But I have calmed and quieted my soul,
like a weaned child with its mother ...

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=408760222

Safer that way ...

 

[Thomas]

No I don't mean that. God as Man. As opposed to as a fish or a sparrow or as a neutron star. The Christ. The bridge between God and Man. In that sense 'no-one comes to the Father but by Me.'
The Christ manifest as Jesus?

Oh, yes ... Yes.

Theosis / Divinisation developed within the context of incarnation theology. It's in Irenaeus (c130–202), Athanasius of Alexandria is reported to have coined the popular patristic aphorism: "He was made human so that he might make us gods" (De incarnatione 54,3, cf. Contra Arianos 1.39).

It underpins Eucharistic theology. Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Alexandria, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr all taught it, and I am awed by the words of Augustine in his Homily to the Catechumen (272):
"If you, therefore, are Christ's body and members, it is your own mystery that is placed on the Lord's table! It is your own mystery that you are receiving! You are saying "Amen" to what you are: your response is a personal signature, affirming your faith. When you hear "The body of Christ", you reply "Amen." Be a member of Christ's body, then, so that your "Amen" may ring true! ... Be what you see; receive what you are..."

 

[OrtaYol]

Well that's it: Is God experiencing 'himself' through his own creation? If we truly have free-will, then our actions cannot be known in advance, even by God?

EDIT: It's philosophical rambling, really. God must be unlimited by time and space. Unknowable. But is God 'experiencing' creation -- through creatures: through us and through angels -- with all that experience implies?

Is experiencing and learning the same thing here? Because if so I would guess, no.

I have a theory on this which I haven't been able to find online but I am sure I am not the only one to consider it.. The future should not be a requisite of omniscience in the same way the ability to "make a square circle" is not a requisite of His omnipotence. The past existed, the present is existing, the future is going to exist.. it is not there to know and therefor it is not reasonable to expect God to know it.

I do think God knows every possible outcome of every possible scenario(think infinite worlds theory), just not the specific path we will choose.

 

[Ahanu]

Is experiencing and learning the same thing here? Because if so I would guess, no.

I have a theory on this which I haven't been able to find online but I am sure I am not the only one to consider it.. The future should not be a requisite of omniscience in the same way the ability to "make a square circle" is not a requisite of His omnipotence. The past existed, the present is existing, the future is going to exist.. it is not there to know and therefor it is not reasonable to expect God to know it.

I do think God knows every possible outcome of every possible scenario(think infinite worlds theory), just not the specific path we will choose.

See John Polkinghorne's thought process:

"Put bluntly, “God does not yet know the unformed future, simply because it is not yet there to be known” (54). Unlike process theology which asserts that God is necessarily limited by temporality, Polkinghorne’s kenosis theology insists that God has “chosen to possess only a current omniscience, temporally indexed” (108, emphasis orig.). World history is continuously unfolding, not a “fixed score” (67-68), and biblical prophecy reflects “a consonance of understanding, rather than confirmation of prediction” (53), such that later events are correlated retrospectively with previous writings. God is therefore mutable (107), continuously adjusting his plans in light of developments in the world. [30] It is clear, however, that Polkinghorne has been moved to this view by his work as a physicist: the unpredictability of quantum events and of chaotic systems are ontological features of the world’s openness to the future (79-80). Hence, nuancing Polkinghorne’s doctrine of divine omniscience, “if God’s creation is intrinsically temporal, surely the Creator must know it in its temporality. In other words, God will not simply know that events are successive but God will know them according to their nature, that is to say, in their succession” (104, italics orig.). [31]​

 

[OrtaYol]

The question of 'just' does not really apply. The effect of the Fall encompasses all.

One's view rather depends on whether one holds a Latin or Greek view of Original Sin.

The Latin view is that we are all culpable of the sin of Adam, therefore we are born in a state of personal sin and thus justifiably condemned before the get-go. The Greek view is more nuanced, that we are all born suffering the effects of the sin of Adam, so it's a bit like an hereditary disability, rather than individual immediate culpability.

Lastly, the eschaton is not a temporal state — time is a condition of our physical universe.

So 'The Harrowing of Hell' is an analogous teaching to indicate that the triumph of the Cross applies across time, rather than applying after the physical event, suggesting those who died before Christ are left to suffer.

Are you suggesting that there is no time in hell? How would anyone experience it then?

Why do you think God would leave those who died before Christ through no fault of their own to suffer?(your last sentence left me with the impression that is what you are saying, sorry if I have misunderstood.)

 

[OrtaYol]

Thanks Ahanu, that is perfect

 

[RJM]

Is experiencing and learning the same thing here? Because if so I would guess, no.

I have a theory on this which I haven't been able to find online but I am sure I am not the only one to consider it.. The future should not be a requisite of omniscience in the same way the ability to "make a square circle" is not a requisite of His omnipotence. The past existed, the present is existing, the future is going to exist.. it is not there to know and therefor it is not reasonable to expect God to know it.

I do think God knows every possible outcome of every possible scenario(think infinite worlds theory), just not the specific path we will choose.

... The past existed, the present is existing, the future is going to exist.. it is not there to know and therefor it is not reasonable to expect God to know it...

But -- if there is no time, to God?

I do think God knows every possible outcome of every possible scenario(think infinite worlds theory), just not the specific path we will choose.

My free will allows me to decide what side of the street to walk on, and that choice could eventually determine my entire future.

Omniscience seems to contradict free will. Free will means a person has to ask God for help. Because angels are not permitted to interfere with us unless we specifically ask for help.

EDIT: I think it's humbling to consider that God who 'made' me is forbidden by his own law from sending angels to help me unless I ask? God waits for my permission. God knocks but only I can open?