Sister Sinead

[Arif Ghamiq]

The Sunni & Shi'a conflict, which is the primary conflict within the Ummah, comes from the differences in interpretation of both Quran & Hadith. Most Hadith are found in both Sunni & Shi'a collections.

Spiritually, Islam is certainly not limited to Quran - or anything really. I personally believe the 'probems of Islam' come from Muslims.

 

[OrtaYol]

The Sunni & Shi'a conflict, which is the primary conflict within the Ummah, comes from the differences in interpretation of both Quran & Hadith. Most Hadith are found in both Sunni & Shi'a collections.

Spiritually, Islam is certainly not limited to Quran - or anything really. I personally believe the 'probems of Islam' come from Muslims.

What are some of the different interpretations of the Quran that cause conflict between Shia and Sunni?

If God claims that nothing has been left out of the Quran, why do we need hadith?

 

[HakimPtsid]

What are some of the different interpretations of the Quran that cause conflict between Shia and Sunni?

If God claims that nothing has been left out of the Quran, why do we need hadith?

The nature of and history of the Qur'an is not flimsy like the Sunni narrative. We believe the prophet was the living, speaking Qur'an. The word (logos) was given to him (like the previous prophets) and the gnosis/irfan he received from Allah (and gnosis of the nature of the Qur'an itself) is passed directly by divine guidance through the prophet's family (Ahl Bayt) through the Twelve Imams. The Twelve Imams all (starting with Ali Talib) shed light on the cryptic book of the Qur'an and show it in all of it's profundity: philosophically, metaphysically and theologically.

Muhammad pbuh, was the seal of the prophetic cycle - the revelation he received (and which was kept with the Imams) is the final restoration of the gnosis/irfan by the monotheism exemplified by prophet Abraham pbuh in particular (even more than Adam pbuh and Noah pbuh). We are not (original) a tribalistic militant religion, and as our Hadiths show; we are extremely philosophical and mystical, unlike Sunni orthodoxy. (there is an oddity in regards to Sunni Sufi's picking up on Shia traits but that different). We also have different eschatological beliefs to them stemming from the Imams themselves).

We know that the revelation given to Muhammad was one of a more universal-bend (existentially), unlike orthodox Sunnism who see it as a most exclusivist 'dog eat dog' form of revelation (leading to formation of ideologies such as Wahhabism).

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

What are some of the different interpretations of the Quran that cause conflict between Shia and Sunni?

If God claims that nothing has been left out of the Quran, why do we need hadith?

One of the differences in the interpretation of The Quran is of Surah 80:1-4. The Surah is called ‘Abasa - meaning “He Frowned”.

The event for which Surah 80 is titled and specifically referred to in the first four verses, occurred when The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was meeting with some Tribal Chiefs and ‘Abdullah ibn Maktum - a blind man - came up to the Prophet.

1) “He frowned and turned away,
2) because there came to him a blind man,
3) And what makes you know that he would not purify?
4) “Or being warned, that he would not profit from the warning?”

According to the Sunni, it was The Prophet who frowned and turned away, while the Shi’a say it was one of the Tribal Chiefs who frowned and turned away because they looked down on him for being poor and blind.

Therefor the Sunni believe these verses are an admonition of The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), while the Shi’a insist that it is an admonition against the Tribal Chief.

For the Shi’a, the Sunni interpretation goes against the ethical character of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and contradicts the belief in the Infallability of The Prophets, which also has application to the Infallability of the 12 Imams (as).

We are told in The Quran that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Example, Model, Pattern to be followed and we are to follow his example and obey his words. He gives no bad examples of behavior nor does he give false instructions. By these Quranic Commands The Hadith are referred to cannot be ignored.

 

[RogerBao]

The Sunni & Shi'a conflict, which is the primary conflict within the Ummah, comes from the differences in interpretation of both Quran & Hadith. Most Hadith are found in both Sunni & Shi'a collections.
Spiritually, Islam is certainly not limited to Quran - or anything really. I personally believe the 'probems of Islam' come from Muslims.

Sunnis are more honest about what the Quran says & in where I live, Shi'ism is banned as deviant. When both of you blame each other for eternity, then you know the root cause is the message itself.

..We know that the revelation given to Muhammad was one of a more universal-bend (existentially), unlike orthodox Sunnism who see it as a most exclusivist 'dog eat dog' form of revelation (leading to formation of ideologies such as Wahhabism).

The Quran calls Non- Muslims as the worst of the animals (98:6). The Sunnis are honest about it. How do a Shia like you find this a universal message for mankind?

...For the Shi’a, the Sunni interpretation goes against the ethical character of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and contradicts the belief in the Infallability of The Prophets, which also has application to the Infallability of the 12 Imams (as).
We are told in The Quran that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Example, Model, Pattern to be followed and we are to follow his example and obey his words. He gives no bad examples of behavior nor does he give false instructions. By these Quranic Commands The Hadith are referred to cannot be ignored.

How can the prophet be infallable if the Quran itself admits him to be a sinner past & future and grant him a blanket amnesty for it (48:2)?​

 

[OrtaYol]

The nature of and history of the Qur'an is not flimsy like the Sunni narrative. We believe the prophet was the living, speaking Qur'an. The word (logos) was given to him (like the previous prophets) and the gnosis/irfan he received from Allah (and gnosis of the nature of the Qur'an itself) is passed directly by divine guidance through the prophet's family (Ahl Bayt) through the Twelve Imams. The Twelve Imams all (starting with Ali Talib) shed light on the cryptic book of the Qur'an and show it in all of it's profundity: philosophically, metaphysically and theologically.

Muhammad pbuh, was the seal of the prophetic cycle - the revelation he received (and which was kept with the Imams) is the final restoration of the gnosis/irfan by the monotheism exemplified by prophet Abraham pbuh in particular (even more than Adam pbuh and Noah pbuh). We are not (original) a tribalistic militant religion, and as our Hadiths show; we are extremely philosophical and mystical, unlike Sunni orthodoxy. (there is an oddity in regards to Sunni Sufi's picking up on Shia traits but that different). We also have different eschatological beliefs to them stemming from the Imams themselves).

We know that the revelation given to Muhammad was one of a more universal-bend (existentially), unlike orthodox Sunnism who see it as a most exclusivist 'dog eat dog' form of revelation (leading to formation of ideologies such as Wahhabism).

Thank you for the response and my apologies for the late reply.

I have a few problems with what you have said.

You say that the Quran is cryptic, however the Quran says:


2:185 - The month of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion.

16:89 - We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

17:9 - Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.

26:2 - These are the verses of the clear Book.

You say divine guidance is passed through the Prophets family, however as shown above and in several other verses the Quran claims to be the guide itself. It claims to be a guide for all mankind, not just the Prophets family.

38:87 - Lo! it is naught else than a reminder for all peoples(repeated in 81:27)


You say the 12 imams shed light on the Quran, however the Quran claims that God Himself is the teacher of the Quran.

29:69 - But those who struggle in Our cause, surely We shall guide them in Our ways; and God is with the good-doers.

55:1-2 - The All-merciful, has taught the Koran.

75:18-19 - So, when We recite it, follow thou its recitation. Then Ours it is to explain it.


Peace.

 

[OrtaYol]

One of the differences in the interpretation of The Quran is of Surah 80:1-4. The Surah is called ‘Abasa - meaning “He Frowned”.

The event for which Surah 80 is titled and specifically referred to in the first four verses, occurred when The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was meeting with some Tribal Chiefs and ‘Abdullah ibn Maktum - a blind man - came up to the Prophet.

1) “He frowned and turned away,
2) because there came to him a blind man,
3) And what makes you know that he would not purify?
4) “Or being warned, that he would not profit from the warning?”

According to the Sunni, it was The Prophet who frowned and turned away, while the Shi’a say it was one of the Tribal Chiefs who frowned and turned away because they looked down on him for being poor and blind.

Therefor the Sunni believe these verses are an admonition of The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), while the Shi’a insist that it is an admonition against the Tribal Chief.

For the Shi’a, the Sunni interpretation goes against the ethical character of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and contradicts the belief in the Infallability of The Prophets, which also has application to the Infallability of the 12 Imams (as).

We are told in The Quran that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the Example, Model, Pattern to be followed and we are to follow his example and obey his words. He gives no bad examples of behavior nor does he give false instructions. By these Quranic Commands The Hadith are referred to cannot be ignored.

Thank you, I was not aware of the Shia interpretation.

For me the wording clearly indicates that the Prophet is the one who turned away. The Shia interpretation makes no sense, if it is the tribal leader who is frowning and turning away why does it say "because there came to him a blind man"? If the tribal chief is both the "he" and the "blind man" it is pretty much saying "the blind man frowned and turned away because there came to him a blind man"... no?

I don't think the Quran ever claims that the Prophets are infallible. There are other instances in the Quran where the Prophet is admonished.

9:43 - Allah pardon you! Why did you give them leave until those who spoke the truth had become manifest to you and you had known the liars?

33:37 - And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him.

66:1 - O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The Quran makes the duties of the Prophet clear:

5:99 - It is only for the Messenger to deliver the Message; and God knows what you reveal and what you hide.

6:19 - Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches.

27:92 - And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: "I am only a Warner".

50:45 - We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My threat.

Can you quote the verses which say the Prophet is the example to follow? I am aware of "Obey the Messenger" which when read in the light of other information presented in the Quran indicates that the Prophet would never instruct other than to follow the Quran.

For me Muhammad played 3 roles.

1. He was the Messenger of God.
2. He was the Prophet to lead his people, while he was alive.
3. He was a man, a very good man but not infallible.

18:110 - Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.


Only as the Messenger was he infallible as the message was Divinely inspired. This is why you will not see the words "Obey Muhammad" or "Obey the Prophet", only "Obey the Messenger". Since we are told that the Messengers "Only duty" is to warn the people using the Quran/convey its message. The correct interpretation(imo) should be "Obey the Messenger" = Obey the Quran.

53:2-4 - Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he speak out of desire. It is a revelations which has been revealed to him


You say hadith cannot be ignored but the Quran says:

6:114 - Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail."

7:185 - Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what message after this will they then believe?

45:6 - These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what hadith after Allah and His verses will they believe?

77:50 - Then in what statement after the Qur'an will they believe?

For 6:114 isn't Muhammad and his alleged hadith/sunnah "Other than God"?
For 45:6 and 77:50 is the correct answer "the hadith/sunnah of the Prophet, his bloodline and the imams" or "None"?

Peace.

 

[OrtaYol]

The Quran calls Non- Muslims as the worst of the animals (98:6). The Sunnis are honest about it. How do a Shia like you find this a universal message for mankind?

How can the prophet be infallable if the Quran itself admits him to be a sinner past & future and grant him a blanket amnesty for it (48:2)?​

In 98:6 the Quran is referring to a specific group of non-believers(as is shown in 98:4-5), it then goes on to say who are the best of creatures in 98:7.

98:7 - Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.

98:7 applies to any monotheist who strives to do/be good.

 

[HakimPtsid]

Thank you for the response and my apologies for the late reply.

I have a few problems with what you have said.

You say that the Quran is cryptic, however the Quran says:


2:185 - The month of Ramadhan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion.

16:89 - We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

17:9 - Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.

26:2 - These are the verses of the clear Book.

You say divine guidance is passed through the Prophets family, however as shown above and in several other verses the Quran claims to be the guide itself. It claims to be a guide for all mankind, not just the Prophets family.

38:87 - Lo! it is naught else than a reminder for all peoples(repeated in 81:27)


You say the 12 imams shed light on the Quran, however the Quran claims that God Himself is the teacher of the Quran.

29:69 - But those who struggle in Our cause, surely We shall guide them in Our ways; and God is with the good-doers.

55:1-2 - The All-merciful, has taught the Koran.

75:18-19 - So, when We recite it, follow thou its recitation. Then Ours it is to explain it.


Peace.

Where is the contradiction?


(as for "clear book", yet there are many other verses stating: "That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an, In a Book kept hidden, Which none toucheth save the purified")

 

[OrtaYol]

Where is the contradiction?


(as for "clear book", yet there are many other verses stating: "That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an, In a Book kept hidden, Which none toucheth save the purified")

I think this is out of context. Also the translation is problematic.

Look at the different interpretations(56:77-78):

Sahih International: Indeed, it is a noble Qur'an. In a Register well-protected;

Pickthall: That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an. In a Book kept hidden

Yusuf Ali: That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable, In Book well-guarded,

Shakir: Most surely it is an honored Quran, In a book that is protected

Muhammad Sarwar: that this is an honorable Quran preserved in a hidden Book

Mohsin Khan: That (this) is indeed an honourable recital (the Noble Quran). In a Book well-guarded

Arberry: it is surely a noble Koran in a hidden Book



If it were as you suggest that the Quran is claiming itself to be hidden it would make no sense the sentence would read "The Quran(a book) is hidden in a book".

The word Quran has two possible meanings, recitation and collection. I think that is the sense in which the word Quran is being used here. In this light the sentence would read "This is a recitation that is kept safe/hidden/guarded in a book. In a place where only the purified can reach(heaven)".

 

[RJM]

I think this is out of context. Also the translation is problematic.

Look at the different interpretations(56:77-78):

Sahih International: Indeed, it is a noble Qur'an. In a Register well-protected;

Pickthall: That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an. In a Book kept hidden

Yusuf Ali: That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable, In Book well-guarded,

Shakir: Most surely it is an honored Quran, In a book that is protected

Muhammad Sarwar: that this is an honorable Quran preserved in a hidden Book

Mohsin Khan: That (this) is indeed an honourable recital (the Noble Quran). In a Book well-guarded

Arberry: it is surely a noble Koran in a hidden Book



If it were as you suggest that the Quran is claiming itself to be hidden it would make no sense the sentence would read "The Quran(a book) is hidden in a book".

The word Quran has two possible meanings, recitation and collection. I think that is the sense in which the word Quran is being used here. In this light the sentence would read "This is a recitation that is kept safe/hidden/guarded in a book. In a place where only the purified can reach(heaven)".

As someone fresh from the outside, could this mean that the truth of the Quran is hidden/protected within the book, like the nut within its shell?

 

[OrtaYol]

As someone fresh from the outside, could this mean that the truth of the Quran is hidden/protected within the book, like the nut within its shell?

The next line is "that none touch except the purified". Since anyone can touch(whether it be physically or metaphorically) the Quran it leads me to believe otherwise. Unless you want to interpret it as only the purified will understand it.

 

[RJM]

The next line is "that none touch except the purified". Since anyone can touch(whether it be physically or metaphorically) the Quran it leads me to believe otherwise. Unless you want to interpret it as only the purified will understand it.

Sounds good to me. Only the pure of heart may enter? The key is given only to the pure? Just guessing.

 

[OrtaYol]

Sounds good to me. Only the pure of heart may enter? The key is given only to the pure? Just guessing.

Only the penitent man will pass

 

[RJM]

Only the penitent man will pass

Who knows. But perhaps a spiritual key is different from a physical key, because a spiritual key requires the 'virtue' necessary to turn it?

 

[OrtaYol]

https://submission.org/verify_preserving_and_protecting_Quran.html

I stumbled on this while looking for something else. It analyses the verse we were discussing.

 

[The Artis Magistra]

I like to cut to the chase as fast as possible. How does one become a Muslim? How does one leave Islam? There are formal methods, but I mean in reality, you will find in many of the reports of people, that the ones who discover Islam say often that it was something they had always acknowledged and felt but didn't know any religion contained the same beliefs as they already pretty much had, and thought, and felt. The other bunch who leaves could never have left if it was like the Sun or Sky or 2+2=4 for them, so they never had it, and really left nothing or made no major change since if you have experienced the undeniable you can not escape it, nor can you come to know what is known already to some or is obvious.

What is it for you here in this thread?

A Muslim to me can only be someone who perceives One Abstract/Formless/Bodiless/Imageless Ultimate God as a reality influencing everything wholly and prays to it and worships it as real and actively responsive through all things which it controls, which is everything from thoughts and experiences and acts, to the weather across the Universe.

I think among the population called Muslims there are many who can pretty easily leave Islam as they are not even Muslims in the first place because of lacking such a view or feeling or experience and interpretation of the world.

I think there are people throughout the past and even today who are Muslim but may not even know about Islam but have found themselves feeling aware of some living spirit behind their experience who they pray to and worship devoutly.

According to Islam, everyone will be judged, and those devotees of The One Imageless God will be rewarded, and the others were created for other things than that. Statements in the Qur'an at times can appear rather fatalistic and helpless before God's Will and Decision.

So do any of you here believe in any such thing? Do any of you perceive regular miracles and communications in your daily life and experiences? Do any of you practice some sort of formal or specific acts or gestures of worship?

Do you have doubts? What about? Just curious!

I always feel a tinge of disturbance at excited announcements of any sort since it brings a tension about being embarassed or hearing of a change. I guess the main one that isn't expected to change most of the time are announcements of deaths.

 

[wil]

I am not Muslim, but over the years and due to your post i be had some thoughts which are surely to be corrected by others.

One does not become Muslim and one does not leave Islam. Because one always is and can't. Sure there are some criteria to follow and penalty for denying, but they are all superficial to the reality. Exploring the five pillars is like exploring the commandments, or beatitudes, counting the omer or spinning the wheel...

 

[The Artis Magistra]

I am not Muslim, but over the years and due to your post i be had some thoughts which are surely to be corrected by others.

One does not become Muslim and one does not leave Islam. Because one always is and can't. Sure there are some criteria to follow and penalty for denying, but they are all superficial to the reality. Exploring the five pillars is like exploring the commandments, or beatitudes, counting the omer or spinning the wheel...

The definition I used for Islam or being a Muslim is probably a very broad one not employed today and perhaps never put into use.

The standard definition is generally that one willingly believes and performs the testimony if faith or shahada and performs or tries to live up to performing the five pillars including the 5 daily worship sessions. I too believe in this definition to some degree or even entirely except that I've encountered a whole lot of people who seem to even do these things but don't have any experiences which appear to them to be supernatural or miraculous, and lacking that, and lacking sound reasoning or sureness behind what they do, their hearts may be in limbo even as they follow the motions to maintain solidarity among their communities or to please their families. I still think they are Muslims, as does everyone else, and maybe it is better for them than to wholly abandon it, but its hard for me to grasp how to live like that and how so many do.

It almost fills me with a sort of indignation. Like "How dare you worship while you don't know or what you don't know or while in doubt?". I like anything that keeps people from crimes, indecency, intoxicants or drug use, so there are pragmatic societal benefits to taming populations morally and legally via their religious obligations, pressures, or even certain beneficial superstitions, but I don't think a person who worships God without acknowledging the present and apparent acts and works of God is the same as one who does, or takes the same out of the practice.

So that comes down to the first part of the pillars, the section regarding correct beliefs or a certain way of interpreting reality, similar or identical to the way the Qur'an seems to present things, which seems to present a worldview where God is literally present and extremely communicative and responsive due to being right there and capable of replying in every sort of way to anyone about anything.

 

[OrtaYol]

I like to cut to the chase as fast as possible. How does one become a Muslim? How does one leave Islam? There are formal methods, but I mean in reality, you will find in many of the reports of people, that the ones who discover Islam say often that it was something they had always acknowledged and felt but didn't know any religion contained the same beliefs as they already pretty much had, and thought, and felt. The other bunch who leaves could never have left if it was like the Sun or Sky or 2+2=4 for them, so they never had it, and really left nothing or made no major change since if you have experienced the undeniable you can not escape it, nor can you come to know what is known already to some or is obvious.

Through your thoughts and actions.

What is it for you here in this thread?

I go by the guidelines set out in the Quran(keeping in mind that muslim means submitter):

43:11 - And who speaks better than he who calls to Allah while he himself does good, and says: I am surely of those who submit?

Basically to be a Muslim you have to accept(not necessarily believe) that God exists and do righteous deeds.

A Muslim to me can only be someone who perceives One Abstract/Formless/Bodiless/Imageless Ultimate God as a reality influencing everything wholly and prays to it and worships it as real and actively responsive through all things which it controls, which is everything from thoughts and experiences and acts, to the weather across the Universe.

What you are describing here is not a Muslim(submitter) but a Mumin(believer), there are several articles that explain the differences, here are a couple:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/muslim mumin FM3.htm
https://www.free-minds.org/mumins

I think there are people throughout the past and even today who are Muslim but may not even know about Islam but have found themselves feeling aware of some living spirit behind their experience who they pray to and worship devoutly.

Yes, pretty much any monotheist that does good fits under the Quranic definition of Muslim.

So do any of you here believe in any such thing? Do any of you perceive regular miracles and communications in your daily life and experiences? Do any of you practice some sort of formal or specific acts or gestures of worship?

I believe.. though I am not sure if I qualify as a Mumin, probably not really. I think I have experienced very minor miracles which I view as communications from God but they are few and far between, which is fine for me. Yes, I perform my ritual prayers 3 times a day and try to include God in all my decisions.

Do you have doubts? What about? Just curious!

I have doubts in my own ability to understand. So I think I am right concerning a lot of my beliefs but I acknowledge that there could be key pieces of information that I am not aware of or do not understand that could flip everything I believe on its head.