''TIME'' - definitions.

[Aupmanyav]

Are you suggesting now that life is just our imagination?
You seem very interested in "knowing all about it" .. so why?
Just curiousity, or are you looking for power.

.. intelligent beings with no purpose ..

Could be. If a pin goes into your finger, it touches nothing.
Sure, I want to know as much as I can - even at this age (I am 77). I have that kind of upbringing.
Even my grandfather who wrote an 8000 verse Sanskrit book on Hindu law (Smriti) in 1950 accepted Big Bang, Evolution and plate tectonics.
Power! Where does power come in the equation?

First thing, not all humans are intelligent. And some who are, do not have courage to question their beliefs.

 

[RJM]

do not have courage to question their beliefs.

The spirit is direct experience.

accepted Big Bang, Evolution and plate tectonics.

Is anyone here denying the mechanics of nature? Where are the literalist 'godidit' creationists you seem so eager to get into combat with?

The universe came into existence from nothing in a single instant. Life came into existence from the dust of the earth.

What is energy? How did everything come from nothing?

Wait, let me guess: 'We don't know yet, but one day we will. Anyway, even if we never do, it won't be 'spirit' because there's no such thing?

edited ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Sure, I want to know as much as I can - even at this age (I am 77).

Congratulations .. I doubt I'll make that

Power! Where does power come in the equation?

Well, knowledge is enabling, isn't it?
..not just scientific knowledge, I might add.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. it won't be 'spirit' because there's no such thing?

Show me evidence, I will accept it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Congratulations .. I doubt I'll make that
Well, knowledge is enabling, isn't it? ..not just scientific knowledge, I might add.

You cannot, because all knowledge for you is in your book.

Well, you can say that. Knowledge enables, not superstition.
What other kind of knowledge are you referring to? .. Black magic?
Like control over (two) Jinns as Bushra Maneka, the wife of Pakistan Prime Minister is supposed to have?
She cooks meat dishes for her jinns.

And there were men from mankind who sought refuge in men from the Jinns, so they [only] increased them in burden. [Quran 72:6]
https://www.islamweb.net/en/article/186619/the-relationship-between-the-jinns-and-humans-i

Narration - Reported by al-Tahhaawi in Mushkil al-Athaar, 4/95, and by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, 22/214
Abu Tha’labah al-Khushani said: “The Messenger of Allaah said: ‘The jinn are of three types: a types that has wings, and they fly through the air; a type that looks like snakes and dogs; and a type that stops for a rest then resumes its journey.” [Shaykh al-Albaani said in al-Mishkaat (2/1206, no. 4148): al-Tahhaawi and Abu’l-Shaykh reported it with a saheeh isnaad]
https://www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/jinn.html

 

[RJM]

Show me evidence, I will accept it.

It's none of my business what you like to accept or not. You keep trying to duck behind the word 'nothing' for the origin of nature -- energy and time and gravity and all the forces -- and you certainly cannot show the evidence for that. So ... looks like the end if the road for this conversation?

 

[Aupmanyav]

'Nothing" is a serious question. It is not that I am trying to duck behind it. It is you who are not understanding it. Saying God or universe is eternal raises more questions.
Yeah, it is not your business to provide evidence. However, I wish that propagators of religions and their books provided some evidence.
Sure, if there is nothing more to say from your side or mine, it is the end of this discussion. See you again in some other topic.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You cannot, because all knowledge for you is in your book.

A petty remark..

What other kind of knowledge are you referring to? .. Black magic?

Oh, please .. you might have some knowledge of Hinduism, but what other religious education have you had?
Not a lot, I would imagine.

Like control over (two) Jinns as Bushra Maneka, the wife of Pakistan Prime Minister is supposed to have?
She cooks meat dishes for her jinns.

Not interested in discussing jinns.
It's enough for me to know they exist.
This is the difference between you & I. You think that your senses / intelligence are absolute.
I believe that human knowledge is "just the tip of the iceburg"

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Sure, if there is nothing more to say..

nothing?

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's enough for me to know they exist.

You don't really know. It is your book which says that they exist, and you believe it.

Our books also mention Gandharvas, Yakshas, Kinnaras (the good ones), and bhoot, preta, pishacha (the evil ones), but since there is no proof, I do not believe in the existence of any.

 

[RJM]

I wish that propagators of religions and their books provided some evidence.

Well, of course there can be no material evidence for non-material spititual forces.

But I do agree with you that people may depend too much on the literal interpreration of their books of scripture.

The books are maps, not territory, imo. Books or teachers that proclaim themselves not to be questioned always demand the question: Why?

Why do I have to believe you? Why may I not question you? Why may I not explore other beliefs? Surely if you are the truth that will make itself evident? The more I search elsewhere, the more I will be convinced by my own exploration to return to you?

Why the need for all the heavy stuff?

There are people like that. It is a problem. The books have to be read against the time and culture they were written down, imo?

But of course that does not mean there is no higher power? The truth shines through. The baby gets chucked out with the bathwater.

It's good to have you here on the forums.

 

[OrtaYol]

Before science accepts that, there will be experiments and only if there is evidence then science will accept it. However, 'virtual particles' appearing and disappearing are a fact. There are theories about the universe arising 'Ex-nihilo'.

Before science accepts yes, but it seems you have already accepted.

Are you a 'najumi' or a prophet that you make predictions.
Whether it is creation or evolution, both are subjects of science.

This - "The future generations will probably conclude that "Goddidit". " was a(not very good) joke.

This - "There must be an 'absolute nothing'" - is a prediction.

 

[OrtaYol]

With what we do to eaxh other, to our environment, to the animals, wxtincting species, destroying the earth with wars and greed....our solutions cause more problems...

The whole concept that man is G!D's ultimate creation I believe is ego based by the authors... We ain't we are destroying our own home.

Quran 40:45 - Certainly the creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of men; but most men know it not.

I could argue the fact that of all Gods creations on Earth the fact that we are the only ones that can destroy it places us pretty high on the list of creations. Stupid flippin' dolphins couldn't do it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Before science accepts yes, but it seems you have already accepted.
This - "The future generations will probably conclude that "Goddidit". " was a(not very good) joke.
This - "There must be an 'absolute nothing'" - is a prediction.

I have not, the only problem is that at the moment there are no other possibilities. Eternal has problems, whether Universe or God. From where it did arise?
Future generations of science will be as analytical as they are today. They will accept what they find evidence for. Scriptures are not enough.
"That there may be an 'absolute nothing'" is a possibility and not a prediction for the reason given above. Possibility and prediction are two different things.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Eternal has problems, whether Universe or God. From where it did arise?

Err.. you might have a problem in undestanding the infinite, but G-d does not.
The question "where does it come from?" only applies to something that appears.
.. such as the universe

 

[Aupmanyav]

Your stating something does not prove it. You still have to prove existence of God / Allah before describing its properties.
Flying Spaghetti Monster also is eternal. Don't you agree?

 

[OrtaYol]

I have not, the only problem is that at the moment there are no other possibilities.

When you say something "must" be the case it tends to indicate it is the position you have taken. Even if at the moment there are no other possibilities, you are making a prediction in that it will remain so.

Eternal has problems, whether Universe or God. From where it did arise?

Something eternal does not arise. If you accept that the big bang was the beginning of time and space, then you should consider that time can't just begin with nothing happening to cause it to begin. Which means something existed before time, to exist before time means you are not bound by time. If you are not bound by time eternity is no problem.

Future generations of science will be as analytical as they are today.

This is a prediction, perhaps they will, perhaps more so but less is also a possibility.

"That there may be an 'absolute nothing'" is a possibility and not a prediction for the reason given above. Possibility and prediction are two different things.

Yes, they are two different things. When you present a possibility to someone, and especially when you add "must be" to it, the possibility becomes a pretty solid prediction.

 

[Aupmanyav]

When you say something "must" be the case it tends to indicate it is the position you have taken. Even if at the moment there are no other possibilities, you are making a prediction in that it will remain so.

If you accept that the big bang was the beginning of time and space, then you should consider that time can't just begin with nothing happening to cause it to begin.

This is a prediction, perhaps they will, perhaps more so but less is also a possibility.

Yes, they are two different things. When you present a possibility to someone, and especially when you add "must be" to it, the possibility becomes a pretty solid prediction.

I used 'must' in the sense of my best guess, of course, it is my current position.

Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe.
"In Big Bang cosmology, the Planck epoch or Planck era is the earliest stage of the Big Bang, before the time passed was equal to the Planck time, or approximately 1 x 10 raised to power −43 seconds. There is no currently available physical theory to describe such short times, and it is not clear in what sense the concept of time is meaningful for values smaller than the Planck time. It is generally assumed that quantum effects of gravity dominate physical interactions at this time scale. At this scale, the unified force of the Standard Model is assumed to be unified with gravitation. Immeasurably hot and dense, the state of the Planck epoch was succeeded by the grand unification epoch, where gravitation is separated from the unified force of the Standard Model, in turn followed by the inflationary epoch, which ended after about 1 x 10 raised to power −32 seconds."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_units#Cosmology
In the Standard Model of Cosmology, 'Quantum fluctuation, Big Bang and inflation; all happened within the period of 1 x 10 raised to power −32 seconds.

Sure, space/time did not arise without reason and the reason was 'Quantum fluctuation'.

I expect the future generations to be wiser than us rather than more foolish.

No, it does not. It still remains a strong possibility.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Flying Spaghetti Monster also is eternal. Don't you agree?

Unsurprisingly, no!

 

[OrtaYol]

Quantum fluctuation, is just pushing the problem a little further away. What triggered the fluctuations? This path leads to infinite regress.