Oral Torah, Sacred Tradition, Ahadith

RJM Corbet said:
The truth is these doctrinal wranglings don't really matter to me at all. But I am just asking anyway.
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The way Trinitarian Christology is being presented here is very interesting! Up until now, I had known some of the underlying thoughts, but I've caught more than a glimpse of the depth it goes to, here in this thread.

Also, Arianism was to me just one early medieval form of Christianity, which the Goths and Vandals happened to follow. Again, I got a better understanding of the underlying thoughts and assumptions, from following along.

In my perfect world it would all be happening without the stepping on each other's toes, but I 'm getting a lot out of this anyhow.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
Simple deduction?
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You tell me.

You don't accept the commentaries, so not deduced from the historical sources.
You don't understand the language, so not deduced from philosophy or theology.
So a simple deduction based on I know not what.

(Why quote wiki if it's drawn from unreliable and partisan sources?)
 
Cino said:
Since Jewish Kabbalah also has an emanationist model of creation, similar to neoplatonism ... I think @muhammad_isa has a point here.
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That point is not in dispute. It's fundamental that Arius believed the Father is greater than the Son.

What @muhammad_isa rejects is that the Father can be God, and the Son be God, even though the Son is not equal to the Father (Arius actually says the Son is 'fully God', but begotten, not Unbegotten), without Arius claiming polytheism.

Emanationism allows for gradation or hierarchy within the Divinity.

Cino said:
I find your discussion fascinating, btw, learning a lot! May I suggest you start a thread of its own on Arian Christology?
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I'm thinking of doing an essay on just that!
 
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Cino said:
The way Trinitarian Christology is being presented here is very interesting! Up until now, I had known some of the underlying thoughts, but I've caught more than a glimpse of the depth it goes to, here in this thread.

Also, Arianism was to me just one early medieval form of Christianity, which the Goths and Vandals happened to follow. Again, I got a better understanding of the underlying thoughts and assumptions, from following along.

In my perfect world it would all be happening without the stepping on each other's toes, but I 'm getting a lot out of this anyhow.
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Me too @Cino
All you say
 
Personally I see we are very fortunate that Baha'u'llah has explained the Divinity in detail and as such has explained what the doctrine of the Trinity tried to, but instead has become a veil.

Basically we do have God, the Word or Holy Spirit and the Messenger.

All we can know of God is the Messenger, who to us they are the 'Self of God' in attributes of the Word, but they are not the Essence of God.

Baha'u'llah has offered even the Holy Spirit is created of God.

Thus the Divinity in Metephor is seen as God the Sun, the Holy Spirit as the rays and the Messenger as the Mirror. If we look at the Messenger we see but a man like us, if we look at the mirror, we see the perfect reflection of God. At no time do we see the Essence of God.

The Mirror or Messenger also is given a distinct Message in a given station. So at one time when that mirror was Jesus, the station was Christ (Annointed One). The Message was given as the Son, a Son that would return as the Father, to guide us unto all truth. I see in this age the Message was given as the Father by Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) and as such the Father has told us even the Messenger's do not know the Essence of God and God does not Decend into creation.

Impossible to give this picture in such a few words, but there is now volumes of writings on this topic for us to pursue, if that is the choice we make.

I wish all well and happy. Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
The Mirror or Messenger also is given a distinct Message in a given station. So at one time when that mirror was Jesus, the station was Christ (Annointed One). The Message was given as the Son, a Son that would return as the Father, to guide us unto all truth. I see in this age the Message was given as the Father by Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) and as such the Father has told us even the Messenger's do not know the Essence of God and God does not Decend into creation.
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That's all nice and shiny. But the mirror wore a crown of thorns and died on a cross. The mirror did more than reflect. Christ lives and dies for every man, from king to beggar
 
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RJM Corbet said:
That's all nice and shiny. But the mirror wore a crown of thorns and died on a cross. The mirror did more than reflect. Christ lives and dies for every man, from king to beggar
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Yes 100 percent so. I see that all the Messengers suffer to show us the Love of One God. Jesus showed us that it is a personal choice to take up the cross and follow him, but how many chose that path?

Now if we use Justice and be fair minded, we can look at all the Mesengers and see what they faced.

So have you read the life of the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

The story of the Bab is that of Jesus fate, except twice as long, six years of persecution before being executed.

You may like to look at the comparison of the life of Jesus and the Bab.

https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/8471/

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes 100 percent so. I see that all the Messengers suffer to show us the Love of One God. Jesus showed us that it is a personal choice to take up the cross and follow him, but how many chose that path?

Now if we use Justice and be fair minded, we can look at all the Mesengers and see what they faced.

So have you read the life of the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

The story of the Bab is that of Jesus fate, except twice as long, six years of persecution before being executed.

You may like to look at the comparison of the life of Jesus and the Bab.

https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/8471/

Regards Tony
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No I did not know that. I will have a look. Thanks Tony
 
muhammad_isa said:
Simple deduction?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Sirmium

Your arguments about the Arians, that they also believed that "Jesus is God"
is not particularly relevant, in any case.
What IS relevant is that they believed that "the Father is greater than the Son" !
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Well, even Jesus said only the Father knew of the coming time of the end and when it would happen. There were things even Jesus didn't know that the Father did.
 
ScholarlySeeker said:
Well, even Jesus said only the Father knew of the coming time of the end and when it would happen. There were things even Jesus didn't know that the Father did.
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Are you aware that In the Baha'i Writings, Baha'u'llah is the promised Father? I has also been explained in great detail as to how all the Names, Stations and Attributes are all from One God.

Baha'u'llah was in Chains in the 'Black Pit' in 1853 when His Mission was announced unto him in a Vision. It was not until 1863 that Baha'u'llah declared that Mission to His closest companions. A few had known who Baha'u'llah was since the 1840's.

At least it makes interesting discussion ;) Regards Tony
 
ScholarlySeeker said:
No. I was not aware of that. I seriously doubt it however.
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That is quite ok, as you can beleive what you see is Truth. But it would not be right if I did not tell you that I see the promise has been fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah wrote to the Pope at the time. I will place a link under the spoiler to the full tablet and a quote that make clear what Baha'u'llah is claiming. In this section Baha'u'llah refers to John and Jesus as the Messiah.

Link https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html I have put some text in bold, and some explanations in bold brackets.

"....O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán (Bab - Gate): O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break.

Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.

Say: O peoples of all faiths! Walk not in the ways of them that followed the Pharisees and thus veiled themselves from the Spirit. They truly have strayed and are in error. The Ancient Beauty is come in His Most Great Name, and He wisheth to admit all mankind into His most holy Kingdom. The pure in heart behold the Kingdom of God manifest before His Face. Make haste thereunto and follow not the infidel and the ungodly. Should your eye be opposed thereto, pluck it out. Thus hath it been decreed by the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by Him Who is the Lord of the entire creation. He, verily, hath come again that ye might be redeemed, O peoples of the earth. Will ye slay Him Who desireth to grant you eternal life? Fear God, O ye who are endued with insight....."

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
..I will place a link under the spoiler to the full tablet and a quote that make clear what Baha'u'llah is claiming. In this section Baha'u'llah refers to John and Jesus as the Messiah..
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Yes .. "the writing" says that Jesus was the promised Father in Isaiah. Not the writer himself! o_O
 
muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. "the writing" says that Jesus was the promised Father in Isaiah. Not the writer himself! o_O
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Personally I see Isaiah 9 prophecy is about Baha'u'llah, it says "6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."

But of course you can see it any light that you so choose.

From what I have read, Baha'u'llah has explained why it is more applicable to this age and to me, I must say that it is obvious Jesus the Christ did not bring that promised day.

Regards Tony
 
muhammad_isa said:
Perhaps you would like to give us "a spoiler" showing us where in his writings he claimed that?
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It is posted just above. It is in the Summons of the Lord of Hosts in the Tablet sent to the Pope.

Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
That is quite ok, as you can beleive what you see is Truth. But it would not be right if I did not tell you that I see the promise has been fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah wrote to the Pope at the time. I will place a link under the spoiler to the full tablet and a quote that make clear what Baha'u'llah is claiming. In this section Baha'u'llah refers to John and Jesus as the Messiah.

Link https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html I have put some text in bold, and some explanations in bold brackets.

"....O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán (Bab - Gate): O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break.

Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.

Say: O peoples of all faiths! Walk not in the ways of them that followed the Pharisees and thus veiled themselves from the Spirit. They truly have strayed and are in error. The Ancient Beauty is come in His Most Great Name, and He wisheth to admit all mankind into His most holy Kingdom. The pure in heart behold the Kingdom of God manifest before His Face. Make haste thereunto and follow not the infidel and the ungodly. Should your eye be opposed thereto, pluck it out. Thus hath it been decreed by the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by Him Who is the Lord of the entire creation. He, verily, hath come again that ye might be redeemed, O peoples of the earth. Will ye slay Him Who desireth to grant you eternal life? Fear God, O ye who are endued with insight....."

Regards Tony
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Isaiah has a lot dedicated to the Message given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. That is what I see, but of course, you are free to see it how you choose.

Regards Tony
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
Personally I see Isaiah 9 prophecy is about Baha'u'llah, it says "6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."

But of course you can see it any light that you so choose.

From what I have read, Baha'u'llah has explained why it is more applicable to this age and to me, I must say that it is obvious Jesus the Christ did not bring that promised day.

Regards Tony
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Yeah, that could be. But just as a heads up, Joseph Smith saw Isaiah 29 prophesying of him, Martin Harris, and the Book of Mormon as a sealed book. Martin Harris was the unlearned man who asked the learned to read the script, and the scholar he visited was said to have said "I cannot read a sealed book," thus verifying in Mormons' minds Isaiah prophesied about a very important occurrence in their church history and to their prophet Joseph Smith with their singular most important book of scripture, and that right down to the nitty gritty details. So perhaps Isaiah was an ancient universal prophet prophesying everyone these days?! Who knows?
 
Martin Harris?
In the winter of 1828, Harris took the transcript of characters to New York City, where he met with Charles Anthon, a professor of linguistics at Columbia College.
...
Anthon records that he [again] advised Harris he had been defrauded and should go straight home and ask to examine the plates locked in the chest, but Harris responded that he could not look at the plates or he and his family would be cursed.
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Oh dear ..
 
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