Probably the same as they would in the Vatican...or is there another wholy Christian nation?
Why Christians fear Islam
- Thread starter Faithfulservant
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I don't know, let's compare how Iraqi's are treated by the USA... pre-emptive what? Seems more innocent Iraqi's have died at our hands than Bahai at Irans.
And we aren't a theocracy, who is bawling we are, while tearing down the ten commandments everywhere...how they heck are we a theocracy? Oh and what caused Iran to go the theocracy route?? Oh yeah, it was ousting our puppet the Shaw.
Ah, yes, nice way to dodge the question. I don't recall any President stating that we are going to go kill Iraqis because they're Muslim.
How DO the Baha'i fare in the USA vs. Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc? What DOES happen to outspoken atheists in those countries?
And, do please, point out to me the portions of USA law that specify that the Iraq war is a war against Islam. Do, please point out the portions of USA law that impose dhimmi taxes. Of course, you have sidestepped my direct questions more than once.
How DO the Baha'i fare in the USA vs. Iran? What DOES happen to outspoken atheists in places like Iran?
If Islam as it is practiced really is as "tolerant" as people on this board make it out to be, then a country like Iran would reflect that "tolerance", wouldn't it?
Over and over, I see contrasts made between Islam in the pretty ideal vs. Christianity in the messy reality or contrasts between MEDIEVAL Islam vs. MEDIEVAL Western countries, with no mention at all made about how "tolerant" those Muslim countries are in the here and now.
If we are going to contrast, let us contrast the messy reality with the messy reality in the here and now, because those of us who do not have full-time guardians with power of attorney or who actually pay our own bills live in the messy, real here and now. When it comes down to making plans regarding the safety of my children, I don't care a whit about what the ideal of any religious doctrine might be. I look at how its adherents actually live.
PS: I didn't know a sarcastic British playwright was "our puppet" in Iran.
Nice subject change, I responded to that question in regards to the number of people the US killed in Iraq....we win!
The vatican city response was in regards to the following question of yours....
Having fun with riddles again are we?
So you tell me, how would the outspoken atheist group or fairie goddesses fare in Vatican City?
Mesenja
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Apples & Oranges
First the United Sates of America is not a theocracy. It is a secular society. Second I would suspect that the culture of any particular society has a greater role to play in the intolerance to religious plurality then the religion of Islam itself. Therefore it is invalid to point to some example of religious intolerance in any particular Islamic country as proof positive that this is directly a result of Islam.
First the United Sates of America is not a theocracy. It is a secular society. Second I would suspect that the culture of any particular society has a greater role to play in the intolerance to religious plurality then the religion of Islam itself. Therefore it is invalid to point to some example of religious intolerance in any particular Islamic country as proof positive that this is directly a result of Islam.
c0de
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Dream
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Hi mesenja,Mesenja said:
You are not the first to mistake the USA for a secular entity, however in the USA, the people mediate God's will to the government. Government here is officially under the people, who are under God: Every court session is reopened by the phrase 'God save this honorable court,' which is an official government admission that God is present to do so. When presidents and other leaders make bad decisions, they are voted out, presumably having failed to recognize God's sovereignty. That is the assumption of the laws here, anyway. Additionally, all leaders are considered corruptible, through term limits. The government is not trusted as a mediator between God and man, however this does not destroy the theocratic principle.
In regards to the OP and for the record, I'm a Christian and I don't fear Islam. At our church we invite Imam's to speak a couple times a year and provide an interfaith experience for our youth so they don't grow with such fears.
Namaste Dream,
Since a theocracy is a country governed by a religion, exactly which religion governs the US?
Surely you are aware the words 'under G!d' were not always on our money and are a fairly recent addition to our pledge of allegiance.
We may have a reverence to the almighty, but which approach to that almighty is a choice...
Dream
Well-Known Member
Wil said:
Wow, Wil! That is really smart. I was filled with fear of many of Satan's influences in the denomination I grew up in, although strangely we did have one Muslim that attended. He was old, so his Christian wife took him everywhere. The dude tried to argue with me about the trinity way back then, but I was a teenager. You know how teenagers are. Of course he had some snazzy arguments, but at that time I had no confidence in my own ability to reason -- certainly I was not comfortable outside of the norms of my church's ideas. While his argument was good, I had to conclude that he must be in error in some way. That same lack of self confidence also made me believe the many scary stories I heard about the various peoples of other religions. When you're a kid, you just believe what you're told.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Namaste Wil, this is unfortunately a long post. Hope you can find a nugget of truth in it.
I do realize the money was changed recently and originally was just money. While God is not mentioned in the constitution, creation and equality are both mentioned in the declaration of independence from England. These refer to all men as being equal. Rather than specifying religious beliefs the theocracy of our government concentrates on saying it does not believe that government representatives are to be priests. It is not to be a hagiarchy, which is what most theocracies actually are. The strategy taken is to put the people above the government, not specifiying personal religious practices. This same idea transfers over to the preamble of the Constitution, which compares our government with others when it says 'In order to form a more perfect union'. The other unions were theocratic-hagiarchies, rather than pure theocracies. The idea is that it is impossible to mix theology with government without making theology subject to the government. Hence, to form a more perfect union requires placing religious authority and theology above government discussion. It was understood to be an idea within the constitution, but some people argued that it should be explicitly stated. That is where the 1st amendment comes from. The amendment takes special care not to define 'God' referring only to 'Religion' which is the habit and practice of believers. God is therefore placed above government, the government recognizing that it may not define God.
I will cut it short here so not to get off topic. I think of the USA as a theocracy.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
The country may not be governed by any religious ideology, but that doesn't mean that religious ideology doesn't dominate its politics. I have heard from time to time about certain powerful lobby groups that have a big influence on the country's government, and fanatical extremist voters who will turn up to the ballot box to show how religious they are. The problem is made worse by non-compulsory voting. Fundamentalist Christians and Christian Zionists.
Gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, creationism. Americans seem to shout louder than the rest of the world.
Ironically it has little to do with the teachings of Jesus. 1,000 years later, some people are still pursuing the crusades, killin' and murderin' doctors in abortion clinics. It is one reason why the USA should be ashamed of calling itself a superpower nation. Someone needs to hold the USA accountable for what it is.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Salty, how would you like your coffee sir? Christian evangelical fundamentalism is a new thing, and its completely different from the crusades. Its political wing started in the late 70's and early 80's, and it cannot control the government or the populace. What some of us temporarily forgot here in the states is why the government doesn't interfere in religious matters -- why we dropped Calvinism.
Ideas take time to travel. The political religious fundamentalism movement has vintages (like cheese) of decades, as it spreads and mutates over the Bible belt and all over North America. In later vintages, people begin to appreciate separation of church and state even more than before fundamentalism hit their area. I think experiencing fundamentalism eventually tends to counteract any appreciation for it. I understand why you're angry.
Ideas take time to travel. The political religious fundamentalism movement has vintages (like cheese) of decades, as it spreads and mutates over the Bible belt and all over North America. In later vintages, people begin to appreciate separation of church and state even more than before fundamentalism hit their area. I think experiencing fundamentalism eventually tends to counteract any appreciation for it. I understand why you're angry.
Netti-Netti
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Is a dead link.
It's not uncommon to see Christian/Muslim comparisons/contrasts that highlight doctrinal differences and claim distortions. Much of this is thinly veiled political discourse rather than an honest attempt to see how different the religions really are. We've seen some of those discussions here.
The doctrinal differences are not new and were apparently been at issue historically in American missionary work in the Middle East. In keeping with the past, more recently there has apparently been a systematic effort to convert Iraqis to Christianity.
My sense is that expressed fear of Muslims is self-serving in several ways. For one thing, it involves a world view that in effect reinforces religious beliefs. The expressed fear is actually part of a prophetic/dispensational hope: "Since the colonial era, American Christians have found comfort in biblical prophecies that appeared to indicate that no matter how dire the threat presented by Islam, God and his people would win out in the end." (Thomas Kidd, 2009)
The expressed fear of Muslims is also self-serving in the sense that it can help maintain in- and out-group distinctions. Evangelicals and Biblical fundamentalists can rationalize their own righteousness and superiority against a backdrop of a religious conflict with persons/groups who are seen as heretics (e.g., Muslims). You know, the old "there's-good-guys-and-there's bad guys, and we-be-the-good guys" thing.
Netti-Netti
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I just read that witches are persecuted in India. Why do you think intolerance is a doctrinal matter specific to only one religion?
Faithfulservant
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uh yeah.. considering this thread is FIVE years old
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Salty.. really all that hate and anger isnt good for you. It eats away at you like a cancer and makes you all bitter and stuff. Just some words of concern from a fellow postee.