Faith and Belief

CobblersApprentice said:
Oh, I thought I was being excluded from editing because I was a newcomer!

Thank you for the welcome.
Click to expand...
There seem to be more than a couple site glitches at the moment. It'll get sorted out.
I believe XYZ Acme shares will rise in value. I put my bucks down ... there's my faith in action. But it is English? Other languages will have other words with other shades of meaning?
 
There are faiths that demand belief. So what if God never responds -- just keep believing, it'll be alright? But now that means the problem is with myself, not with God? Am I believing in the wrong way? Why isn't God hearing? Why isn't God responding? Serious questions ...
 
I pray, but there is no response, where do I go from here?
 
RJM Corbet said:
There seem to be more than a couple site glitches at the moment. It'll get sorted out.
I believe XYZ Acme shares will rise in value. I put my bucks down ... there's my faith in action. But it is English? Other languages will have other words with other shades of meaning?
Click to expand...

Yes, they do. Approaching Pure Land Buddhism from the "western" side is one thing, after immersing oneself in the non-dual perspective of the "east" it is another. Thus "faith" and the Pure Land "shinjin".

Pure Land is often dismissed as of the emotions, of "faith", while Zen (for instance) is of another order. Yet historically, Zen and Pure Land were practiced side by side in Japanese monasteries.

"Faith in action"? The zen master (of soto zen) taught that "things as they are" is never of a fixed reality/truth, that the power for self-subversion and self renewal is inherent in the vision itself. Thus things seen as they are are transformable. For Dogen, "seeing" WAS changing and making. He also taught that faith and enlightenment interpenetrated each other.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
RJM Corbet said:
I pray, but there is no response, where do I go from here?
Click to expand...

Meister Eckhart, spoke of "true obedience" as not being "I want this" or "I want that" but only as being a "complete going out of oneself". Again, not "give me this particular virtue or way of devotion" or even "give me Yourself", but only "what you will and in the way that you will."

Where do we "go" given such "obedience". What would be a "lack of response"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
CobblersApprentice said:
Meister Eckhart, spoke of "true obedience" as not being "I want this" or "I want that" but only as being a "complete going out of oneself". Again, not "give me this particular virtue or way of devotion" or even "give me Yourself", but only "what you will and in the way that you will."

Where do we "go" given such "obedience". What would be a "lack of response"?
Click to expand...
I want God with me. Thst Is the only prayer? The agony of Christ: My God, why have you forsaken me?
 
In effect I have to "translate" your words into a non-theist, non-dual context.

Already quoted from the Pure Land tradition....

Whether heading for the Pure Land
Or heading for hell
All is in Amida's hands.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
RJM Corbet said:
I don't have a clue the importance of such a platitude? Does thst mean anything at all?
Click to expand...

It is an expression of faith, of pure acceptance.

Here is another "platitude":-

Will you tell me of Other Power?
Yes, but there is neither self power nor Other Power.
What is, is the graceful acceptance only.

Obviously the "importance" is dependant upon Reality itself.
 
But in distress, we do accept because there's no choice, but at the same time we pray for spititual relief?
 
RJM Corbet said:
Oh yes. I'm totally 'in sync' here.
Click to expand...

What I found attractive in Pure Land Buddhism was the spectrum of understanding regarding Amida. For some, "him up there" (or out to the west) coming to greet us at death and take us to the Pure Land. For others, a personification of Reality-as-is, the Pure Land, here now when known in shinjin (faith) And all points inbetween.

Well, thats the ideal. Maybe a bit of infighting!
 
Ok, but my soul is personal to me, and my relationship to the divine is personal to that, otherwise it doesn't matter anyway, why should I care?
 
RJM Corbet said:
But in distress, we do accept because there's no choice, but at the same time we pray for spititual relief?
Click to expand...

Well, ideally, pure acceptance (which is potentially the catalyst of genuine transformation) rather than grasping at "relief" (spiritual or not) Again, an ideal. Far easier to accept the "good" and "pleasant".

As Thomas Merton wrote:- "We already possess God by grace, and therefore we have arrived, But how far have I to go to find You in Whom I have already arrived!"

Basho would say that "the journey itself is home", but that's enough name dropping for now.

Never intended to rabbit on for so long. Must go now. Thanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil
CobblersApprentice said:
Meister Eckhart, spoke of "true obedience" as not being "I want this" or "I want that" but only as being a "complete going out of oneself". Again, not "give me this particular virtue or way of devotion" or even "give me Yourself", but only "what you will and in the way that you will."

Where do we "go" given such "obedience". What would be a "lack of response"?
Click to expand...

Obedience, or surrender.

Lack of response could be lack of surrender.

Or something else. For an emotional lineage, your stuff is pretty heady.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
How would others here distinguish between Faith and Belief - if at all.

Thank you
Click to expand...

Faith to me is a conduit, a channel, whereas belief would be what I hold to be true regarding spiritual matters. Some beliefs might be subject to change or evolution, some not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RJM
Arif Ghamiq said:
The Arabic/Quranic word Iman is translated as both "Faith" and "Belief". The root meaning is "to trust".
Click to expand...

That is good, thank you. It adds clarity. Faith to me is a Trust that sets no conditions. Belief will often seek to set conditions, expectations.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top