"Salvation" and "Enlightenment"

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Yes, I'm sure, thinking back, that as far as Christianity is concerned, it is more about Who Jesus was, rather than what He said. Obviously the two have some sort of inter-relationship, but nevertheless it would still leave St Paul with something to say..

Yes .. that's about it. I have no problem with Paul.
I believe that he was sincere, and his job in conveying the faith was not an easy task.
There ended up some confusion between "the Jerusalem church", which was basically a Jewish sect..
..and "the new Gentile church" which was harnessed by the Romans.

Oh, and I know it's a time difference thing, but I find it slightly disturbing that most here come out to play at night.
:)

Oh well .. it is what it is :D
 
You mean that Jesus "paid the price", and so we don't have to..
a] IMO "sacrifice" in western/Mid-East history was a custom the origin of which is not known by whence it originated.
b] IMO Jesus's pastimes in and of themselves "Die, Rise, Ascend to the Father" was what Jesus sought to benedict all ---thus the enmass sins, that kept this secret hidden, was lifted. "We are Spirit Souls in our Material Bodies" ---any regular folk across the known world could understand the message and thus be relieved of Not-knowing that "We are Spirit Souls in our Material Bodies".

BECAUSE FYI:
The first lesson of "spiritual-life" of "spiritual training" taught in a (bonefide) ashram to the students is: "I am Spirit Soul in a Material Body"

[aka,"Aham Brahmasmi", I am Spirit Soul]
 
a] IMO "sacrifice" in western/Mid-East history was a custom the origin of which is not known by whence it originated.
Really!

I know it is spoken of ie Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Pigeons at the temple courtyards ---but where in antiquity does such a custom stem from?

My references state that Sanskrit mantras* could be used by the expert Brahmans of yore to do what amounted to magic. So too, contact a demigod and ask a boom.

DYK, the esoteric back story to Buddha [an Avatara of Vishnu]?
Buddha advented to denounce the authority of the Vedas
---"There are no such things as the demigods [Devas]! Sacrifices to them is false".

BTW there is a back story to that back story:
Buddha advented to appease the same demigods, because they were aware that
NON-brahmans** were making all sorts of un-worthy attempts at "sacrificing animals"
in exchange for a boom. And this was an IMPOSITION upon the demigods
---so they appealed to Vishnu to remedy this "ugra"-karma activities on Earth.
Thus Buddha came and introduced "Ahimsa" [non-violence] etc etc etc.




[*espoused to be the language of the cosmic celestial Demigods and thus espoused to be a language knowingly constructed of sublimely onomatopoeia/mathematical/ergonomic precision. DYK, the Sanskrit alphabet is ordered/organised as per the "Articulation Points" in the mouth. And thus forms the core of IPA, International phonetic alphabet.]

[**At approx 5,000 years ago in India, Krishna, God the one Supreme Almighty appeared ... engaged in many pastimes etc, ... and later left the planet. THUS,all the Brahmans sought to follow in his coat-tails and dispense with all worldly concerns [aka go to the ashrams and strive for enlightenment and nothing more and when the final exam of death arrived they'd be transported to be in the Lord's company ---thus the world lost in Brahmans. And thus, the warrior caste took prominence as history proceeded allowing for aberrated pursuits to occur]
 
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I know it is spoken of ie Romans, Greeks, Babylonians, Pigeons at the temple courtyards ---but where in antiquity does such a custom stem from?
Ritual sacrifice of animals was part of the shared cultural heritage of pretty much all of humanity, I think. Maybe it arose from hunter traditions, dealing with emotions of having killed an animal. In Greek religion, animals had to be ritually killed and certain body parts offered to the gods, in order for the meat to be ritually pure and fit to be sold by a butcher - which is reflected in early Cristian texts prohibiting eating meat offered to idols.

In the context of the shared heritage of the Greek, Roman, and Vedic religions, there is for example the ritual of the Horse Sacrifice, which is of great antiquity. I believe the Vedic term would be Asvamedha.

The Buddha preached Non-Violence towards living beings, but so did Mahavira, and maybe other contemporaries of the two. Also, Zoroaster introduced wide-ranging reforms, which also amounted to not sacrificing animals to the devas.
 
[**At approx 5,000 BCE in India, Krishna, God the one Supreme Almighty appeared ... engaged in many pastimes etc, ... and later left the planet...]

Hmm .. this makes no sense to me.
Why would G-d appear 7000 years ago, but not now? What does it even mean that He appeared?

eg. what does G-d look like? .. did He inhabit a physical body? .. what sort of game is G-d playing to appear and disappear?
 
To answer that, we need to understand what forgiveness means..

For one, it is unconditional. Any strings attached would lead to something unforgiven. "Forgive and forget" in its purest form.

The counterpart to forgiveness is also important: Seeking forgiveness. It is sincere in its intention to change behavior. Any secret plan to repeat what one is seeking forgiveness for, reveals insincerity. Some love to request "forgive and forget", because the "forget" bit seems to offer a loophole.

When it is done right, forgiveness and seeking forgiveness are very powerful agents for positive change.

When the shadow sides of attaching strings or seeking loopholes creep in, "forgive and forget" are very powerful tools in the hands of abusers.
 
For one, it is unconditional. Any strings attached would lead to something unforgiven. "Forgive and forget" in its purest form.

The counterpart to forgiveness is also important: Seeking forgiveness. It is sincere in its intention to change behavior. Any secret plan to repeat what one is seeking forgiveness for, reveals insincerity.

Yes, forgiveness is extremely important.
If we cannot forgive others, then how can we expect G-d to forgive us?

There are 2 basic levels of forgiveness, major and minor.
The major form is known as repentance, and as you quite rightly say, it is necessary to NOT repeat the major sins involved.
eg. Cursing G-d, murder, adultery, fraud

With the minor form, it is accepted that you will probably continue to make those sins, as it is virtually impossible NOT to sin.
For these sins, asking G-d or the person involved to forgive us will suffice, and cleanliness is next to Godliness :)
 
Ritual sacrifice of animals was part of the shared cultural heritage of pretty much all of humanity, I think. Maybe it arose.......

Animals, including often the human animal! There was also a book once, dealing more with explicit myth, that related the stories of about 16 crucified "saviours". Where did this idea come from, what was the intent and purpose and belief/s behind it?

Maybe, if we decide, and come to conclusions, we find out about ourselves? Where our own "allegiances" are. (Not that we do not seek the "facts" that support them)

So maybe the human animal simply believes that there is a price to be paid for everything. But that, in fact, there is not. By the "price" being paid by another, in fact by Reality itself, we can be relieved of any sense of obligation. Alas, as if! We seem determined to pay a price to "justify" ourselves.

I relate this to the ubiquitous sense of paradox at the heart of all reality and the way so much turns back into its opposite at the furthest extremes.

Thomas Merton was once asked to contribute to a book about "success" and offered the following:-

If I have a message to my contemporaries it is surely this: Be anything you like, be madmen, drunks, and bastards of every shape and form, but at all costs avoid one thing: success......if you are too obsessed with success you will forget how to live. If you have learned only how to be a success, your life has probably been wasted.

Having posted this on another Forum, someone said that his view of Merton was diminished by such an outburst! Well, each to their own, but in my view this poster was missing the fundamental nature of all life, its paradoxical heart and thus missing the point that for all intents and purposes Merton was indeed a success!!

As I see it, all we truly need we already have; gift, grace. The task (if it can be called that) is realisation rather than a progressive attainment - any sense of the latter bringing with it the mind of the "pharisee", of judgement of others as not having put in the effort like ourselves.

In "A Study of Chuang Tzu" - the introduction to Merton's very loose "translation" of the Chinese Sage - Thomas Merton goes into detail of the various paradoxes, like happiness coming from doing absolutely nothing to seek it. Well worth a read.

Anyway, I feel I have waffled enough. Later we are to be invaded by grandchildren, who keep us on our toes. At 7 and 5 they will stand for no nonsense.
 
Where did this idea come from, what was the intent and purpose and belief/s behind it?

Well, according to the Torah, it was God's idea (he changed his mind, but still...) that Abraham should sacrifice his son Isaac.

Enjoy you grandchildren! Keep them away from the sacrificial altars ;)
 
Well, according to the Torah, it was God's idea (he changed his mind, but still...) that Abraham should sacrifice his son Isaac.

Sort of .. Abraham, peace be with him, had a vision/dream .. a similar concept, perhaps..
G-d didn't really "change His mind" :)
He stopped Him from doing it .. but the whole episode was "written", yes..

As an additional point of interest, the Torah says it was Isaac, and the Qur'an says it was Ishmael (peace be with them)
..and so the "family feud" goes on :rolleyes:
 
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As an additional point of interest, the Torah says it was Isaac, and the Qur'an says it was Ishmael (peace be with them)
..and so the "family feud" goes on :rolleyes:
Yes, and sorry for the oversight.
 
Well, according to the Torah, it was God's idea (he changed his mind, but still...) that Abraham should sacrifice his son Isaac.

Enjoy you grandchildren! Keep them away from the sacrificial altars ;)
God required that Abraham was prepared to give everything. Abraham proved willing. It was the willingness that came first. Solomon renounced wealth in place of wisdom. He was willing. So God gave him wisdom and made him rich too. There is a lot of truth in these Biblical passages. They are the shell of the nut.
 
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God required that Abraham was prepared to give everything. Abraham proved willing. It was the willingness that came first. Solomon renounced wealth in place of wisdom. He was willing. So God gave him wisdom and made him rich too. There is a lot of truth in these Biblical passages. They are the shell of the nut.

Also, the willingness of Isaac/Ismail to die for the greater glory.

To me, it's one of the most complex and personally troubling stories in all of the scriptures of various faiths I have ever read. It's been with me since childhood. It's a really hard nut to crack.
 
Also, the willingness of Isaac/Ismail to die for the greater glory.

To me, it's one of the most complex and personally troubling stories in all of the scriptures of various faiths I have ever read. It's been with me since childhood. It's a really hard nut to crack.
There is nothing a person is less willing to sacrifice than his own child. A person will die to save his own child. It was the hardest thing God could ask of Abraham. God had to know he had Abraham's full commitment.

It's too easy to get caught up in the literal sacrifice of blood on the altar. Go deeper.
 
I'm just reading the forums for a while. But on the subject of sacrifice I wanted to say my piece.
 
There is nothing a person is less willing to sacrifice than his own child. A person will die to save his own child. It was the hardest thing God could ask of Abraham. God had to know he had Abraham's full commitment.
I'm a parent, I can relate. Abraham says "here I am" to both his God and his child, right? Also, he lies to the child about his real intentions. This story goes very deep.

Back in childhood and adolescence, I was more in the other situation, of being the sacrificial token confidant of adult parents in a dysfunctional relationship with each other. So that was what I got from the story from early on.

Not fun, being figuratively bound.

It's too easy to get caught up in the literal sacrifice of blood on the altar. Go deeper.

Maybe you'll want to review the relevant sections in the bible. Don't get too hung up on the BLOOD sacrifice. There are instructions for all kinds of sacrifice in the texts, most not involving blood. I think the only passage about blood is explanatory, why it is taboo to touch or consume blood (because it is life-giving). It's been a while, so I could be wrong.
 
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..I think the only passage about blood is explanatory, why it is taboo to touch or consume blood (because it is life-giving). It's been a while, so I could be wrong.

Blood is a complex fluid. It carries all sorts of things.
Spiritual purity cannot be achieved by eating black pudding .. it affects our whole being :mad:
 
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