"Salvation" and "Enlightenment"

[Bhaktajan II]

worshipping idols and falsehood.

It's on the news everyday. They have TV shows with that in the title?

Are you familiar with Idols and falsehood.

Fake news is a falsehood.

False-witness is a falsehood.

Our Gurus first teach to be on-guard for bogus-yogis.

IMO
GOD DOES WHAT EVER HE WANTS WHEN HE WANTS WITH NO LIMITS.

God is not material.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
God said in his Song verse 10.36:

I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor.
I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong.

PURPORT by Prabhupada Swami

There are many kinds of cheaters all over the universe.
Of all cheating processes, gambling stands supreme and
therefore represents Krsna. As the Supreme, Krsna can be
more deceitful than any mere man.

If Krsna chooses to deceive a person, no one can surpass Him in His deceit.
His greatness is not simply one-sided-it is all-sided.
Among the victorious, He is victory. He is the splendor of the splendid.
Among enterprising industrialists, He is the most enterprising.
Among adventurers, He is the most adventurous, and among the strong,
He is the strongest. When Krsna was present on earth,
no one could surpass Him in strength.
Even in His childhood He lifted Govardhana Hill.
No one can surpass Him in cheating, no one can surpass Him in splendor,
no one can surpass Him in victory, no one can surpass Him in enterprise,
and no one can surpass Him in strength.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

G-d does NOT incarnate Himself into human beings.

That is a bold declaration.

Hiranyakashipu was an Asura and king of the daityas from the Puranic scriptures of Hinduism. His name literally translates to "clothed in gold" (hiranya "gold" kashipu "soft cushion"), depicting someone one who is fond of wealth.
The story of Hiranyakashipu is in three parts. .... The final part deals with his efforts to kill his son Prahlada (a devotee of Vishnu) and his subsequent death at the hands of Narasimha.

As a child Prahlada becomes recognised as a devoted follower of Vishnu, much to his father's disappointment.[9]

Hiranyakashipu eventually becomes so angry and upset at his son's devotion to Vishnu (whom he sees as his mortal enemy) that he decides he must kill him[10] but each time he attempts to kill the boy, Prahlada is protected by Vishnu's mystical power. When asked, Prahlada refuses to acknowledge his father as the supreme lord of the universe and claims that Vishnu is all-pervading and omnipresent. To which Hiranyakashipu points to a nearby pillar and asks if 'his Vishnu' is in it:

"O most unfortunate Prahlada, you have always described a supreme being other than me, a supreme being who is above everything, who is the controller of everyone, and who is all-pervading. But where is He? If He is everywhere, then why is He not present before me in this pillar?"

Prahlada then answers, He was, He is and He will be. (In an alternate version of the story, Prahlada answers He is in pillars, and he is in the least twig.) Hiranyakashipu, unable to control his anger, smashes the pillar with his mace. A tumultuous sound is heard, and Vishnu in the form of Narasimha appears from the broken pillar and moves to attack Hiranyakashipu in defence of Prahlada.

Vishnu has chosen here to appear in the form of Narasimha in order to be able to kill Hiranyakashipu without violating the boon given byBrahma. Hiranyakashipu cannot be killed by human, deva or animal, but Narasimha is none of these, as he is a form of Vishnu (a deva) incarnate as part human, part animal. He comes upon Hiranyakashipu at twilight (when it is neither day nor night) on the threshold of a courtyard (neither indoors nor out), and puts the demon on his thighs (neither earth nor space). Using his nails (neither animate nor inanimate) as weapons, he disembowels and kills the demon.[12]

Even after Hiranyakashipu's death, none of the gods and demigods present are able to calm Narasimha's fury. So all the gods and goddesses call His consort, the goddess Lakshmi, but she is also unable to do so. Then, at the request of Brahma, Prahlada is presented to Narasimha, who is finally calmed by the prayers of his devotee.

Editor's Note: Prahlada lived during the first Manu's epoch [we are presently in the 28th Manu's life span] iwo, Prahlada lived 120.400.000 years ago.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..IMO
GOD DOES WHAT EVER HE WANTS WHEN HE WANTS WITH NO LIMITS.

God is not material.

A few posts ago, you said that G-d appeared as His original self [and gave us a picture of a human]

..so which is it? Is G-d non-material, or does he originally have human form?
Furthermore, you have not explained about whether God was born, and there are a family of gods.
As in Earthly Kings, does one god die, and then the next in line to the throne become "god"?

 

[Bhaktajan II]

We are spirit souls, we are spirit souls animating a material body.

All living beings in the material world HAVE A SOUL
[the material world is composed of
earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego]
When the spirit soul takes birth in a material body the material body
acts "alive" ...when the soul leaves, the body dies.

The vacancies for a prime choice preferred birth is highly desirable
and are acquired by those souls with good karma
---the same rule applies in the reverse too.

Many vacancies are available as many as their are fish in the sea.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

you have not explained about whether God was born

Bhagavad-gita [lit., The Song of God] Chapter 4, Verse 6:

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said:

Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates,
and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings,
I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.



MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

It's like this verse was spoken for you to hear, doesn't it?

 

[Bhaktajan II]

there are a family of gods.

Well that's another topic.

Yes there is a family of demigods. They are an extended family. They comprise the cosmic superintendents.

They are spirit souls in material bodies too. They have a better standard of living than ours, of course.

The one Supreme Almighty sole monotheistic Personage of God is un-born by default ---He is eternal.

His personage is absolute...it may be unknown for generations yet that doesn't change God's prerogatives.

 

[wil]

Many people claim to be prophets/messengers of God, or "G-d talks to them", or they think they are Jesus etc.

I reject the whole lot.

You are allowed to! Just as the Hindu and Muslim is allowed to reject Jesus as son of G!d or part of some 3 part triumvirate.

Just a reminder this is interfaith.org, we are in the belief and spirituality section, we all have differing understandings when it comes to belief. Out purpose here is to gain a new or more detailed understandings of others beliefs.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

Et viola, Interfaith.

What has happened here Sadiq is that it's as if we met in many conflicts since before the Roman times, and then after those times, now after countless conflict after conflict has passed by 1WW 2WW etal ---you have been revealed what had been hidden through the millenniums.

Cool paintings? Long wait to see those images.

There are 3 major scriptures in the world:
Koran,
Bible,
Vedic Literatures.

And thus 3 lineages, many branches.

After all of western history to date has occurred you have been shown the Face of God.

You see, out of the above scriptures there is one where God is speaking directly what is what.

Just as I am an orthodox Hindu myself...I am due the same Faith as you would, say, trust the Taxi driver not to crash.

All Glories to Shree Krishna!

Would you include the huge corpus of Theravada and Mahayana texts under "Vedic Literature"?

 

[muhammad_isa]

We are spirit souls, we are spirit souls animating a material body.

All living beings in the material world [the material world is composed of
earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego]
When the spirit soul takes birth in a material body the material body
acts "alive" ...when the soul leaves, the body dies.

Exactly. We are spirit souls animating a material body.
..suggesting that G-d incarnates a material body, and that He becomes His "original self" implies that He is a spirit soul.
If that is the case, then where do all the souls come from?
I would say that all the spirit souls we see of humans, birds and other creatures belong to G-d.
Saying that God is just a special, perfect soul then begs the question..

Does religion and scripture need to make logical sense?
Some people say nay .. and in that case, religion just becomes fiction.
We might as well say that "the Lord of the Rings" is the truth about our existence

They do that in Ireland. Make up a load of stories.
eg. Blarney is a village just outside the city of Cork, in southwestern Ireland. Its 15th-century Blarney Castle is home to the legendary Blarney Stone, said to give the "gift of the gab" to those who kiss it

There are different types of fairies in Irish fairy lore with different abilities and characteristics. These include the famous few such as the leprechaun, banshees, changelings and many others. The origin of these Irish fairies could be dated back to the ancient Celtic beliefs of pagan Gods and supernatural beings

Is religion supposed to be serious, or is it just a load of incomprehensible legends???

 

[Cino]

Is religion supposed to be serious, or is it just a load of incomprehensible legends???

I have a few friends who are adherents of Discordianism. They are fully aware that it was made up a few decades ago, as a joke. Their faith informs their lives, and they draw resources from it, and put a great deal of energy into it. I had the privilege of being invited to one of their ceremonies, which they had just designed in the course of the past week. It was lively and just as evocative of the sacred as any other religious function I have attended. Their theology is based on deliberately nonsensical elements, and while not as intricate as the theologies of those faiths who have been at it for millennia, trying to make sense of their venerable foundational texts and legends, it already displays the hallmarks of religious human ingenuity.

Just as a data point for consideration.

 

[Cino]

There are 3 major scriptures in the world:
Koran,
Bible,
Vedic Literatures.

How about the Ancients of Europe, the Greeks and Romans? lots of scripture, still very influential. Separate family.

And the Chinese Classics? Another independent tradition.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

Does religion and scripture need to make logical sense?

Hopefully not. In my experience those who seek total "consistency" in any text will end up insisting that the Word is Text, not a Person. They lose mystery and wonder. As Thomas Merton asked, "What is the nature of Reality?" He asked if Reality was "consistent" and said that the world of consistency was the world of justice. He then says:-

There is, above the consistent and logical world of justice, an inconsistent illogical world where nothing "hangs together," where justice no longer damns each to their own darkness. This inconsistent world is the realm of mercy.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

"Let noble thoughts come to us from every side"

Rigveda

Or, "what is not there is nowhere to be found"

 

[Cino]

Does religion and scripture need to make logical sense?
Some people say nay .. and in that case, religion just becomes fiction.
We might as well say that "the Lord of the Rings" is the truth about our existence

Good points!

The Calvinists for example took a good stab at bootstrapping a logically coherent theology just from the texts. Some other Christian denominations have less stringent ideals, but would take offense at being called fiction".

Regarding the Lord of the Rings: I think Tolkien put a great amount of his own religious process into his writings. Are you familiar with his concept of "Sub-Creation", which he developed together with CS Lewis? That stuff does go close to very deep questions about our human existence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hopefully not. In my experience those who seek total "consistency" in any text will end up insisting that the Word is Text, not a Person. They lose mystery and wonder..
.

I don't disagree with you that it is unreasonable to take it to extreme, and have a logical answer to all questions about the nature of G-d.
However, a prime example of illogicality is the old chestnut:-
"Can G-d create a rock heavier than He can carry?"

These questions are absurdities .. they rely on illogical constructs.
Omnipotence in this context must be defined within the bounds of comprehensible language.

eg. G-d cannot make 1+1=3. Likewise, G-d cannot make a being greater than Himself because He is, by definition, the greatest possible being

If one wishes to argue otherwise, then we end up with gobbledigook. I, for one, have no interest in discussing nonsensical concept

 

[muhammad_isa]

Regarding the Lord of the Rings: I think Tolkien put a great amount of his own religious process into his writings..

Yes .. I live in his locality .. Worcestershire UK
Fiction remains fiction. It is not claimed to be otherwise, whether inspired by some religion or not.

Isn't that the whole point? To seek the ultimate truth?
Clearly, some people aren't interested in that .. they prefer ancient text and legend

 

[CobblersApprentice]

Isn't that the whole point? To seek the ultimate truth?
Clearly, some people aren't interested in that .. they prefer ancient text and legend

As I see it, it is not a matter of preferences. As I see it there is no contradiction at all in "seeking the ultimate truth" and being prepared to look anywhere.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

I don't disagree with you that it is unreasonable to take it to extreme, and have a logical answer to all questions about the nature of G-d.
However, a prime example of illogicality is the old chestnut:-
"Can G-d create a rock heavier than He can carry?"

These questions are absurdities .. they rely on illogical constructs.
Omnipotence in this context must be defined within the bounds of comprehensible language.

eg. G-d cannot make 1+1=3. Likewise, G-d cannot make a being greater than Himself because He is, by definition, the greatest possible being

If one wishes to argue otherwise, then we end up with gobbledigook. I, for one, have no interest in discussing nonsensical concept

I think you are mixing apples and oranges, but as I have said before, logic is not my strong point.

 

[Cino]

Isn't that the whole point? To seek the ultimate truth?
Clearly, some people aren't interested in that .. they prefer ancient text and legend

Now I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Aren't the Quran and the Ahadith collections ancient texts?

What difference do you make between a verse revealed to a Hindu Rishi and a Prophet?

What's the difference (apart from personal conviction) between the Report of a Companion of Muhammad, and the Report of a Disciple of Jesus, or the Report of a Student of Socrates or Epicurus, or the reports about Krishna's life on Earth, or Ananda's memories of the Buddha's ministry?

Tolkien encountering the divine maiden dancing in the woods, and writing extensively about that, or other Catholic devotees receiving a vision of Mary, or Baha'u'llah being visited by the maid of heaven, or Crowley approaching Babalon, or the Dalai Lama glimpsing the Bodhisattva, Tara? Muhammad listening to Gabriel's dictation? These are very personal experiences, each very sacred in their own right. I don't think the label "Fiction" does them justice. That would be ignoring a big swathe of our humanity.

(edited: spelling)

 

[muhammad_isa]

What's the difference (apart from personal conviction) between the Report of a Companion of Muhammad, and the Report of a Disciple of Jesus, or the Report of a Student of Socrates or Epicurus, or the reports about Krishna's life on Earth, or Ananda's memories of the Buddha's ministry?

It is more about the reason for our personal conviction..
Why is it that people all over the world have become Muslims and Christians?
Why is it that Sikhism and Hinduism haven't become internationally acknowledged as being "the truth"?

..depends what you are looking for, I would say. Mankind is tribal, and "believe" for reasons other than acknowledgement of truth, often expressing dislike for change etc.

Some people are atheists, and prefer secular values as they value the culture of the country they come from, to the extent that they cannot see that their civilization is seriously declining.