Salvation and Belief

muhammad_isa said:
Merton in effect suggests that our soul has no bearing on its destination .. something that I find illogical.
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Further clarification:- For me, Merton suggests/implies that our "soul" will remain in the world of "self-power" (hell?) until such time as it recognises the efficacy of Grace. Will any "soul" remain in self-power forever? Possibly, our "will" could be that free.
 
muhammad_isa said:
"Reality-as-is" could be any number of things .. it could be good or it could be bad.
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Well, Faith is a wonderful thing.

Whether I am heading for the Pure Land
Or heading for hell
All is in Amida's hands.
Namu-amida-butsu!
 
CobblersApprentice said:
..Whether I am heading for the Pure Land
Or heading for hell
All is in Amida's hands.
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Really?
Is that the same as a Christian saying "all is in Jesus' hands"?
..just asking..

The problem, as I see it, is that anybody can claim that a particular human who has lived, is G-d.
..and there's me thinking that G-d created everybody :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
Really?
Is that the same as a Christian saying "all is in Jesus' hands"?
..just asking..

The problem, as I see it, is that anybody can claim that a particular human who has lived, is G-d.
..and there's me thinking that G-d created everybody :)
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Well, some seem to see problems where others see none.

"same as"? No, one looks to Jesus, another looks to Amida. (Replace either/or with both/and)

Personally I am quite happy to think that we are all the "creation" of G!d/Reality-as-is. Both words ultimately incomprehensible.

EDIT:- personally I'm not claiming that any "particular" human was an "incarnation" of God (as such) in any unique sense. This is why I choose not to identify as a Christian.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Really?
Is that the same as a Christian saying "all is in Jesus' hands"?
..just asking..
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As much as the Moslem says"In shā'Allāh" I would have thought ... (In that I understand that to be an 'If Allah wills' kind of statement?)
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Whether I am heading for the Pure Land
Or heading for hell
All is in Amida's hands.
Namu-amida-butsu!
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One more post, then I'll take a break. I'm up to my eyeballs.

I look for correspondences. Similar, not quite the same. I find it adds clarity.

So the above........correspondences, not quite the same.

1. Not seeking any reward.

2. Loving G!d for "His" own sake and for no other reason.

3. The cry of someone somewhere, I can't remember who or where, that even if G!d cast him into hell he would still love Him.

4. The "zens" who say that zen "enriches" no-one.

5. The little phrase, "letting go and letting God".

6. Faith.

7. Trust.

8. Grace.

9. That the true nature of "religion" is to give thanks. Not to gain "salvation" or earn a passmark.

10. Abraham and his son.

11. Any more?
 
CobblersApprentice said:
.."same as"? No, one looks to Jesus, another looks to Amida. (Replace either/or with both/and)
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They were both human beings .. although many Christians equate Jesus with G-d.
That is why they might think that "in G-d's hands" and "in Jesus' hands" is one and the same.
..but what authority has Amida got that makes you say "I'm in Amida's hands"?

CobblersApprentice said:
Personally I am quite happy to think that we are all the "creation" of G!d/Reality-as-is. Both words ultimately incomprehensible.

EDIT:- personally I'm not claiming that any "particular" human was an "incarnation" of God (as such) in any unique sense. This is why I choose not to identify as a Christian.
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I get that .. You consider G-d as incomprehensible, and you are quite happy to follow a person that seems to make sense.
..authority not being an issue. Is that right?
If so, how can you call it "a faith"? That's what I don't understand :confused:
 
Thomas said:
As much as the Moslem says"In shā'Allāh" I would have thought ... (In that I understand that to be an 'If Allah wills' kind of statement?)
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Yes .. if Allah wills.
Allah is the Arabic for G-d. FYI, Arab Christians refer to G-d as Allah, which proves my point.
..and yes .. we are all in G-d's hands :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. if Allah wills...
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Yes, in God's hand, in Amida's hands, in Jesus' hands, same thing — a figure of speech inferring faith and trust.

muhammad_isa said:
Allah is the Arabic for G-d. FYI, Arab Christians refer to G-d as Allah, which proves my point.
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What point? If we were playing tennis, I'd suggest Christians were calling God Allah before Muslims, and understood that God is Three and God is One ... Islam never seemed able to get its head round the idea that the Trinity is not tritheism.

muhammad_isa said:
..and yes .. we are all in G-d's hands :)
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Quite.
 
muhammad_isa said:
.. You consider G-d as incomprehensible ...
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I would consider anyone who think's God is comprehensible, is suffering from a discreet idolatry.

Certainly we can assert Divine Qualities, else God would not only be incomprehensible, but irrational and illogical, and any belief would be pointless because God might decide differently tomorrow ... but the wise understand that God as such is beyond all categories and all qualification.
 
Thomas said:
God as such is beyond all categories and all qualification.
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God is the source of all categories and all qualification.

We are stuck with wading through all categories and all qualifications.
 
Thomas said:
What point? If we were playing tennis, I'd suggest Christians were calling God Allah before Muslims, and understood that God is Three and God is One..
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Strange, 3 being equivalent to 1. Your original point was "if Allah wills" is the same as
"we are in insert your human being here's hands" are equivalent.
Not to me, they are not :)

Jesus, peace be with him, professed that G-d is One i.e. the shema
There is no reporting of him saying that he denounced it, and said that he was one part out of 3.
Philosophically it might have meaning, but making it a cornerstone of faith is purely deception, imo

Jesus is not an anarchist .. nor was he Greek or Roman :)
 
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muhammad_isa said:
Strange, 3 being equivalent to 1. Your original point was "if Allah wills" is the same as
"we are in insert your human being here's hands" are equivalent.
Not to me, they are not :)
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Dear M_I,

"Strange"? What is strange is that you have an opinion ... and your conclusion is "Strange".

"if Allah wills" is the same as "the Taxi Driver will or will not get into a bad accident" ---this to me is equivalent.

There are real life reasons to begin a prayer and see the mercy.

"if Allah wills" is the same as "the gun toting robber will or will not shoot me" ---this to me is equivalent.

IMO, this needs be practiced as a devotional meditation.
 
Dear Mt T,
I said, "almost all of western Scriptures are not fully comprehensive".

Thomas said:
Well there's an opinion I don't subscribe to :D
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Mt T said, "anyone who think's God is comprehensible, is suffering"

NOW,

I will ask, Is comprehension your point?

As an outsider, the concept of God has not been touched upon...to such a degree that now a triad is whirling around...
 
Thomas said:
"Strange"? What is strange is that you have an opinion ... and your conclusion is "Strange".
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My conclusion is strange?
Well, we all see things differently, I suppose.

Personally, I find it hard to imagine that G-d would appear as a human-being.
Unless of course, you think that it is possible that G-d wants to confuse us.
..or maybe G-d wants us to fight over which human-being might be G-d and which one isn't :D
 
Thomas said:
anyone who think's God is comprehensible, is suffering from ... idolatry.
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Does not idolatry = to have God as discernible? [see with one's eyes]

IMO as a Hindu idolatry is stupid nonsense!

The Statuary in the Hindu Temple [aka the Murti in the Mandira] is NOT a idol
---as expressed by Thomas and muhammad_isa ---there may be
countless surrogates for the western intellectual's definition of
[western traditions] idolatry
...was it Marco Polo who said, "variety is the spice of life"?

Grave stones and City halls have busts to remind the likeness of specific indivisible individual personas.

As it is above ...
 
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muhammad_isa said:
My conclusion is strange?
Well, we all see things differently, I suppose.
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"Strange" = 1 word and 1 syllable.

Later:
"Well, we all see things differently, I suppose." = 8 words and 12 syllables + 2 commas.

Thank you for your consideration.
 
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