Hate

[Cino]

And why does trump not care about anyone? Because he has no love. So if you hate him, you are just like him; both are hateful persons. At which point its basically like hating yourself.

Hate is a complicated thing, many moving parts, many dependencies. It is a human thing, and we humans are complicated.

Example: even when I do hate something or someone, I can still love something or someone else. Even crazier, I can hate someone's ideas and still have a soft spot for the person in my heart. Take my nickname here - I learned about the historical Cino (a contemporary of Dante) from a poem by Ezra Pound, who was a frothing nutcase fan of the Italian fascist leader Mussolini (whose ideology I hate). But his poetry evokes something tender in me. Go figure.

So I don't think it is a stark either/or, "universal love or universal hatred, nothing in between".

That kind of oversimplification is not a mark of wisdom in my eyes.

 

[RJM]

Well as one of those guys who was here ten years ago, might I point out that I have indeed an open mind, and have changed my way of thinking in light of new information, and anyone with sufficient discrimination would see that.

In my experience the 'psychologically conditioned' come and go with a lot of bluster, never lasting long ...

Where I stand firm is when things are 'explained' to be based on flawed reasoning, faulty data, or plain prejudice — defending the Catholic Tradition you get a lot of all three — I respond with, I hope, sufficient argument to make my case.

Long gone now, contributors such as Bananabrain, BobX, Vajradhara and others have given me cause to pause and reconsider ... current contributors have done the same and continue to do so.

If I suffer any 'psychological conditioning' I put that down to my Gaelic genes. That's hardwired and there's nowt I can do about that. I do enjoy dialogue and I do rise to the challenge and the dispute, I can be outspoken and 'robust', forgive me if I use an overused Scots/English word, I do enjoy 'the crack' (more commonly Gaelicised as 'craic' these days ...), being a sleeve-roller by disposition ...

But hate? I try not to allow those demons in. Hypocrisy is another matter, but then I take the lead from my Paradigm Master, and Our Lord gave short shrift to hypocrisy whenever He encountered it.

Perhaps if you asked us to explain our position before resorting to pejorative judgement calls, there might be more fruitful discussion?

In fact if I remember the thread, it was a very superior theosophist determined to force his ideas on you in an extremely rude and arrogant manner, and you patiently and politely and learnedly having none of it, lol?

Great fun ...

EDIT
Perhaps @Beautiful can unearth the thread again? For new discussion?

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

Love - as I've said before - seems to have been deified by many for a long time, while Hate has been demonized. As has been done with Life & Death - Light & Darkness.

I agree with Cino that its not as simple as that. The idea Love is always good & Hate is always bad is false imo and reminds me of a passage from Qur'an 2:216

"It may be that you hate a thing that is good for you; and it may be that you love a thing that is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not."

If one can believe that loving someone or something can sometimes be a bad thing - damaging & toxic - could that one consider that hating someone or something can sometimes be a good thing ? - healing & pure ?

Is Hate absolutely evil ?
Never having any benefit ever ??

And is Love absolutely good?
Never harmful ever ?

 

[RJM]

Love in the ultimate sense is the glue that holds everything together, imo. Nature is like just one of perhaps infinite different rooms contained and surrounded and permeated by the greater house of spirit.

The room of nature is contained by walls of time/space. The house of spirit is contained by love. The greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, but is not turned by it.

All is truly one, like parts of a body. But a finger cannot know that. Only the overseeing brain really knows that. Love is the fact of spirit. It is not a warm emotion. It is far beyind our comprehension? Imo

And what lies outside the dimension/house of spirit? That is far beyond anything a human being could even begin to understand?

 

[Beautiful]

Love - as I've said before - seems to have been deified by many for a long time, while Hate has been demonized. As has been done with Life & Death - Light & Darkness.

I agree with Cino that its not as simple as that. The idea Love is always good & Hate is always bad is false imo and reminds me of a passage from Qur'an 2:216

"It may be that you hate a thing that is good for you; and it may be that you love a thing that is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not."

If one can believe that loving someone or something can sometimes be a bad thing - damaging & toxic - could that one consider that hating someone or something can sometimes be a good thing ? - healing & pure ?

Is Hate absolutely evil ?
Never having any benefit ever ??

And is Love absolutely good?
Never harmful ever ?

Real love is always good...more than good really, its divine! If people have their definition of love wrong thats a whole other thing and a very simple manner.

That verse from the Qur'an is amazing and totally and absolutley true and a very enlightened thing to say. But then we are are saying the same thing. What is said there is basically; you can love to smoke, or drink, but in fact you should revile them and what they represent (the number one cause of avoidable death world wide.) That is why the Word of God is truth; its logic and reasoning is flawless.

On the matter of hating hate, lets take for example the white slave owner who abused and whipped and worked hundreds of black people to death...dont you just want to go back in time and kill the bastard?

Indeed, but its out of love for our fellow beings that we hate these people...so its love, not hate. This is called Righteousness. And I agree, it can be good to feel righteousness, to want to defend the weak, to stand up for truth and what is right, but not by feeling hate...if you feel hate you kill the white slave owner and achieve nothing but a prison sentence. It takes brains to do a campaign as William Wilberforce (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce) did to succesfuly abolish slavery. Therefore love and righteousness is what is good about the hate we feel for evil, but not the hate in itself. Hate in itself is never good.

Hate clowds judgmenet and festers in the heart and is a delusion. We are controlled by 'hate' which just means 'anger' really.

No state attorney ever put a serial killer behind bars clowded with hate for the deffendant. Its the love they feel for the victims which gives attorneys the drive to put the evil doers behind bars.

In a game of chess you dont win by hating the opponent, you win because you love the game. Many opponents will try to make you hate them so you get emotional and make wrong moves. If you do get emotional, you lose.

Equanimity reins supreme.

In most religions they dont speak of hate but of Maya, which means illussion...and Gotama would invite Maya over for tea if Maya showed up...he didnt hate Maya for being Maya, he simply saw him for who he was; illusion, lies, falsity, delusion, pain, suffering. If he were to feel hate in his heart for Maya, Maya would have won, for hate is delusion--it is anger taking rein of the mind. The Buddah had abandoned such nasty emotions (and so should we if we love ourselves and our peace of mind)

The abuser of sentient beings has to be taken to the court of Law, on Earth and beyond this dimension. There shall be justice. This is part of what it means to have a loving God, which is the main philosophical argument for God...proven time and time again in all books by most all philosophers.

God means love. Love means truth. Truth means justice.

 

[Beautiful]

Hate is a complicated thing, many moving parts, many dependencies. It is a human thing, and we humans are complicated.

Example: even when I do hate something or someone, I can still love something or someone else. Even crazier, I can hate someone's ideas and still have a soft spot for the person in my heart. Take my nickname here - I learned about the historical Cino (a contemporary of Dante) from a poem by Ezra Pound, who was a frothing nutcase fan of the Italian fascist leader Mussolini (whose ideology I hate). But his poetry evokes something tender in me. Go figure.

So I don't think it is a stark either/or, "universal love or universal hatred, nothing in between".

That kind of oversimplification is not a mark of wisdom in my eyes.

This topic cant be simplified at all, cause its very sutil and complex levels of reasoning. The thing is, this is what we call "hate the sin, not the sinner."

If you look at Trump and study him you'll see he suffers from narcisistic personality disorder. As all these Trump has learned from very very early in childhood to hide that evil spiritdness and self obsession through a flase facade of charisma--a trick as old as time.

The charisma gets to such heights that he can actually take the attention away from his obvious, glaring flaws. I'm not speaking in a public sense, but in an intimate sense: most people would love to hang out with Trump cause he is fun, he is exciting, he is charismatic, he knows how to talk, how to have parties...etc.

Its only once people get inmeshed in the lives of narcisists that they realize the grave mistake they have made. But they fell to the trap of his charisma. They took it at face value. They didnt see behind the mask. Didnt look deeply enough.

So yes, many people could "love" trump's charisma say, but hate his nastiness...

but it would be a misunderstanding, a wrong way of looking at it, in my oppinion, because his nastiness precedes his charisma. His nastiness is the Truth, so to speak, while that his charisma is an added layer of protection to his ego and a Falsity.

In essence, his heart is dirty cause he does dirty...no one who understands love can love trump, obviously.

And thats why he deserves compassion. Precisley because no one will ever truly love him. He suffers his own rotten mind, as all rotten minds do. And he is deluded and does not know where he is standing or what existence is at all. He deserves compassion. This is why etymlogically God is the best judge; his sentences are served with deep compassion (which means Wisdom)

 

[Thomas]

In most religions they dont speak of hate but of Maya, which means illusion... he didnt hate Maya for being Maya, he simply saw him for who he was; illusion, lies, falsity, delusion, pain, suffering. If he were to feel hate in his heart for Maya, Maya would have won, for hate is delusion...

Whoa! Steady there ...

Working from the Vedanta (the source of the concept), whilst Maya is commonly rendered as 'illusion', she is also 'divine play'.

In Christian terms, Maya is theophany, she is the Veil of God. Maya veils and unveils; she is the intermediary between the finite and the Infinite. She is the play of the infinite in all its infinite forms ...

If Atma is Principle, then Maya is its manifold manifestation. The world is Maya as distinct from Atma, but while being Maya, it points implicitly, and to some explicitly, to Atma.

Maya is the reverberation of the Divine. Maya is to Atma as Infinitude is to the Absolute, Maya is All-Possibility that gives rise to Being.

From the point of view of a fallen or fractured humanity, Maya is both Eve and Mary, eros and agape; psychic (seductive) and pneumatic (liberating); descendent or ascendant. The Veils of Maya are there in order to manifest the potentialities of the Supreme Good; and, on the other, She veils good in order to be able to unveil it, and thus to manifest a further good: that of the prodigal son’s return, or of Deliverance.

Maya proceeds from the very nature of Atma and proves the Infinitude, All-Possibility and Radiation of Atma; Maya exteriorizes and unfolds the innumerable potentialities of Atma. Maya cannot not be, and to deny Maya is to be unaware of the nature of the supreme Self.

All-Possibility must, by definition and on pain of contradiction, include its own apparent impossibility, its own apparent contradiction — the possibility of not-being.

The Infinite must realize the finite — the relative, the finite the contingent — on pain of not being the Infinite. Thus suffering and injustice must exist by virtue of that Infinity, that Divine Plenitude, and this is where the human finds her/himself, and this is why both Christianity and Buddhism regards the human state as something unique and special.

There is an aspect of Maya which is divine and attracts to God, another which takes away from God, and an intermediate which innocently seeks only to be itself, remaining provisionally neutral in relation to the other two aspects.

There is the Maya that is divine, Maya that is celestial, Maya that is earthly.

But the flaw, the error, the blindness, the theophanic opacity with regard to the nature of Maya, is ours.

Maya liberates.

+++

Notes taken from the writings of Frithjof Schuon on the Sophia Perennis

 

[Beautiful]

Thats very true Thomas. It is like that

It can also be seen that Maya is the reptilian brain--but that the next step in the evolution for self aware and god aware beings lies outside of those sense impulses, impulses which are the sole cause of the existence of all living beings now, but that served its purpose and has to pass...as all things must. It is known that we have developed a frontal lobe since the reptilian brain...perhaps there is something there.

 

[Thomas]

Thats very true Thomas. It is like that

The Traditionalist School of the Sophia Perennis — René Guénon, Frithjof Schuon, Marco Pallis, Robert Bolton, Martin Lings, et al are my go-to reference source when discussing comparative religion.

It can also be seen that Maya is the reptilian brain ...

That term was new to me. A quick check on Google suggests the reptile brain as part of the triune brain theory of P. D MacLean proved immensely popular and influential, but has in the last two decades fallen out of favour as new information and understanding renders MacLean's conclusions to be erroneous?

... but that the next step in the evolution for self aware and god aware beings lies outside of those sense impulses, impulses which are the sole cause of the existence of all living beings now, but that served its purpose and has to pass...

Ah ... suffice to say I hold to an holistic (Abrahamic) rather than dualistic paradigm, and that theosis – deification – is possible here and now, and not dependent upon evolution. Indeed all things must pass, but bear in mind that an Infinite which does not encompass and include every mode of finitude is thereby not Infinite ... as the old saw goes: there's a place for everything, and everything in its place.

is known that we have developed a frontal lobe since the reptilian brain...perhaps there is something there.

You'll have to review current scientific understanding of the question. Quora has a good entry and posts the 'problems' with MacLean's hypothesis:

1. The "reptilian core" is present in all vertebrates, but it doesn't do what Maclean thought it does. It isn't dedicated to "reptilian" behaviors, it plays a crucial role in action selection at all levels.

2. The "limbic system" is not a unified system. It is a set of diverse structures with diverse connections and diverse functions. In particular it is not uniquely responsible for emotion.

3. The terms "paleomammalian" and "neomammalian" are not justifiable. The cerebral cortex and the so-called "limbic system" have essentially the same structure in all mammals. There is no basis for saying that one is older than the other.

Food for thought ...

 

[Cino]

This topic cant be simplified at all, cause its very sutil and complex levels of reasoning. The thing is, this is what we call "hate the sin, not the sinner."

If you look at Trump and study him you'll see he suffers from narcisistic personality disorder. As all these Trump has learned from very very early in childhood to hide that evil spiritdness and self obsession through a flase facade of charisma--a trick as old as time

As a general observation, people with NPD don't usually suffer from it, or perceive it as a problem. The suffering is being done by others. Weird, isn't it?

And thats why he deserves compassion. Precisley because no one will ever truly love him. He suffers his own rotten mind, as all rotten minds do. And he is deluded and does not know where he is standing or what existence is at all. He deserves compassion. This is why etymlogically God is the best judge; his sentences are served with deep compassion (which means Wisdom)

That's a slippery slope to a very condescending kind of compassion... I'd tread carefully.

Compassion can be a tricky thing in itself - "Idiot compassion" is another one of those nice crisp terms coined by the old wino, Trungpa.

 

[RabbiO]

He deserves compassion. This is why etymlogically God is the best judge; his sentences are served with deep compassion (which means Wisdom)

Even if I assume you mean "etymologically" I have no idea what this sentence means. Could you clairfy, please?

 

[RJM]

If people have their definition of love wrong that's a whole other thing and a very simple manner.

Do you have a simple definition of love?

 

[wil]

I love you Beautiful.

I don't always parse your exact meaning but I grock your intent.

I feel others here have similar issues with you as they have with me. I got accused of rose colored glasses, I see you as simply having a different paradigm, one which isn't as restricted by societal norms.

When we have feelings for words rather than definitions it makes communication with others who do difficult. Don't conform I say, flow on.

 

[Beautiful]

Even if I assume you mean "etymologically" I have no idea what this sentence means. Could you clairfy, please?

Indeed that sentence makes no sense. The word one meant to use was 'epistemologically' as in; The Source of creation is a realm of supreme justice, balance, and wisdom, and there are many great epistemological arguments to prove it.

 

[Beautiful]

What is love? Love is a state of being in which thought is not; but the very defining of love is a process of thought, and so it is not love. We have to understand thought itself, and not try to capture love by thought. Love is the natural state of mind, its where the mind gravitates to naturally. This means deep relaxation, the state of least exaltation; the mind in its natural, resting state.

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. ."

 

[Beautiful]

I love you Beautiful.

I don't always parse your exact meaning but I grock your intent.

I feel others here have similar issues with you as they have with me. I got accused of rose colored glasses, I see you as simply having a different paradigm, one which isn't as restricted by societal norms.

When we have feelings for words rather than definitions it makes communication with others who do difficult. Don't conform I say, flow on.

Ok I'll flow on, beautiful❤

My intent of course is to convert you all into my doomsday cult...but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Anywhoooo, what some think are rose colored glasses I know as Intense Realism.

 

[RJM]

And thats why he deserves compassion. Precisley because no one will ever truly love him. He suffers his own rotten mind, as all rotten minds do. And he is deluded and does not know where he is standing or what existence is at all. He deserves compassion. This is why etymlogically God is the best judge; his sentences are served with deep compassion (which means Wisdom)

That's a slippery slope to a very condescending kind of compassion... I'd tread carefully.

Compassion can be a tricky thing in itself - "Idiot compassion" is another one of those nice crisp terms coined by the old wino, Trungpa.

Yes. Totally. It's fine to pull nice sounding platitudes, but we are dealing here with the very stable genius leader of the most powerful 21st Century nation, with his finger on the nuclear button.

We have agreed earlier in this thread that 'hating' Trump isn't going anywhere. But in the real world it's just a bit simplistic to tell people to feel guilty and inferior because -- unlike the superior enlightened ones -- they cannot feel compassion for the man who, given another four years, is quite capable of starting nuclear World War Three because someone out there tripped his flaky ego.

 

[RJM]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
- A quote mistakenly attributed to JFK.

Anywhoooo, what some think are rose colored glasses I know as Intense Realism.

Remember the Pieta?
The mother of God cradles the broken body of the son of God at the foot of the cross upon which the world killed him because he loved too much.

He never promised rainbows. It's the gulf between Christ and Krisnamurti that cannot be bridged, imo

edited ...

 

[RJM]

Each to their own. No offence meant ...

 

[Beautiful]

Yes. Totally. It's fine to pull nice sounding platitudes, but we are dealing here with the very stable genius leader of the most powerful 21st Century nation, with his finger on the nuclear button.

We have agreed earlier in this thread that 'hating' Trump isn't going anywhere. But in the real world it's just a bit simplistic to tell people to feel guilty and inferior because -- unlike the superior enlightened ones -- they cannot feel compassion for the man who, given another four years, is quite capable of starting nuclear World War Three because someone out there tripped his flaky ego.

Who told people to feel guilty about anything? Haha

Compassion is a knowledge, you either have it or dont. Its very simple, you just complicate it. You either help people and feel compassion for them, or dont. You either understand the glory of love, or dont. Take it or leave it....

Its a practice which most all religions practice through ascetism and purification of the soul. If you have not practiced this, you do not know it, just like if you have never practiced jiu jitsu you wouldnt know how to arm bar someone. Theres no guilt in not knowing jiu jitsu, its just a fact.

— 2 Corinthians 1:3-4
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as Christ God forgave you.

Ancient knowledge. Very ancient Law.