Christian worship service

[Trailblazer]

Welcome to the forums, @Trailblazer I hope you will enjoy the discussions here!

There's a place for intros in the Lounge section, in case you'd like to give us some background.

Thanks. I will be sure to do that as soon as I have time.
I usually say more than I should because I am a really trusting person.
Since I am on the run, for now I will just say I am glad there is an atheist in our midst. I am a believer but I always feel at home with atheists.... More on that later.

 

[Cino]

Oh, you already did an intro thread, I had just missed it before.

I feel at home here, too.

What kind of intteraction with atheists did you have? It's nice to hear good things about my siblings in unbelief.

 

[KnowSelf]

Hi, I am a new member who just signed up yesterday.

Your comment caught my eye. Can you tell me why you are frustrated by religion as you know it to be?
I am also frustrated with religion as I know it to be, even though I belong to a religion, the Baha'i Faith, but I am probably frustrated for different reasons than you are.

Welcome Trailblazer! It is my experience that preachers, pastors and clergymen do not know as much as they lead us to believe. My father was a Southern Baptist preacher who failed his family in more ways countable. I attended Bible college for an intensive study of the bible of which I gained a better understanding of the bible.

Having greater knowledge of the bible gave me a higher sense discernment related biblical teachings of preachers, pastors and clergymen. When I attend weekly church services I do not approve of the message given by my pastor and so I find fault with him and the church. Perhaps I am judging preachers and the church due to previous failings of both in my life.

I am learning through this forum that my world is much bigger than before.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, you already did an intro thread, I had just missed it before.

I feel at home here, too.

What kind of interaction with atheists did you have? It's nice to hear good things about my siblings in unbelief.

I did a short intro but I could always do a longer one...
I have had lots of interactions with atheists on forums, not in person, because there are not many in my area that I know and I do not socialize much in person... But for example, my primary forum for about three years was owned by an atheist and he was a strong atheist who did not like religion, particularly my religion. Most of the posters there were agnostics and atheists and they chased most of the Christians away. I was the lone Baha'i and I was not treated very well, but I stayed because I liked some of the people... Unfortunately, that did not end well, another long story.

I have lots of stories. Then I went to another forum for two years and there were about 50% atheists there so I got to know some very nice atheists.... That did not end well either, not because of the atheists though, because of some believers, another long story. It does not have to be over but I have kind of decided it is over because I will not post on a forum where the staff is unjust. Justice and equity are the important teachings of my religion and I cannot tolerate inequity and injustice. It hurts like hell the way I was treated, because I am a very sensitive person, but I am a strong person so I always get over these things, especially if I find new people who are nice, as seems to be the case on this forum.
Now I really have to go to work because the bus does not wait. I normally ride my bike to work, but not today because it needs work.
See you later.

 

[KnowSelf]

Do you have personal contact with "your religion"? Explain..

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you have personal contact with "your religion"? Explain..

I am not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean do I participate the Baha'i community activities?
Baha'is have many kinds of activities but presently I am not involved in any for personal reasons and because of my life circumstances.
My contact with other members of my religion is on forums and in e-mail, except for my husband who is also a Baha'i.

 

[KnowSelf]

Interesting, will you share your worldview with us? My worldview is Christian, my relationship to God is though Jesus who gave me salvation and forgiveness that freed me from sin.

 

[RJM]

my relationship to God is though Jesus who gave me salvation and forgiveness that freed me from sin.

But have I arrived at that? Have I looked at the beauty of Buddhist Dharma, or other beliefs, before deciding that I have the only way to salvation? Does my church forbid me considering other beliefs?

 

[RJM]

I personally sometimes have a bit of a problem with the emphasis on 'Jesus' as opposed to 'The Christ'?

 

[Cino]

I personally sometimes have a bit of a problem with the emphasis on 'Jesus' as opposed to 'The Christ'?

Form vs. Function?

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting, will you share your worldview with us? My worldview is Christian, my relationship to God is though Jesus who gave me salvation and forgiveness that freed me from sin.

That sharing is going to have to be an ongoing process, because my worldview is too big to encompass in one short post, but since you summarized yours here, I will summarize mine, and then later when I have more time I will elaborate on it.

My worldview is Baha'i and my relationship to God is through Baha'u'llah although I also relate to God through Jesus and all the other Manifestations of God, what I also refer to as Prophets or Messengers of God. My focus is not on individual salvation but rather in the salvation of all of humanity and the unity of mankind. That salvation is not from original sin because I do not believe we are all born in sin. I believe we are all born good, since we are made in the image of God, but we have two natures, a lower material nature which is greedy and selfish, and a higher spiritual nature, which is noble and selfless. Below are some of my favorite Bible verses which espouse my views.

Matthew 16:24-26 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

 

[Cino]

Wasn't he preaching the end times in those verses, though, even if he got the timing wrong in verse 28? Not to bang the literalist drum here, but the context of these verses is not primarily one of "spiritual vs. carnal nature", I think.

In your world view, what's the point of having two natures? Are both in the image of God?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I believe we are all born good, since we are made in the image of God, but we have two natures, a lower material nature which is greedy and selfish, and a higher spiritual nature, which is noble and selfless.

Is being born good separate from the two nature's or are we born with much more of the higher nature?

I could agree that we naturally have both natures, but I'm too cynical to say that we are born more good than not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wasn't he preaching the end times in those verses, though, even if he got the timing wrong in verse 28? Not to bang the literalist drum here, but the context of these verses is not primarily one of "spiritual vs. carnal nature", I think.

Imo, it is about spiritual vs. carnal if you look at the verses that came before, because He was contrasting things that are not of God with things that are of men, and then He talks about denying self (things that are of men).

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I cannot say what Jesus was referring to here. It was assumed by some Christians this meant Jesus was coming back to earth (second coming) but obviously He could not have been talking about physical death. Much of the language of Jesus was metaphorical. Moreover Son of man does not necessarily refer to the same man Jesus; since Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world in John 18:36, it would not make sense that Jesus was referring to Himself.

In your world view, what's the point of having two natures? Are both in the image of God?

To me, it is not a matter of what’s the point. I believe that both natures exist in man but both natures are not in the image of God, only our spiritual nature. Our physical nature is inherited from Adam.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
Some Answered Questions, p. 118

We are made in the image of God so we have the potential to reflect the attributes of God. If we live according to our spiritual nature we reflect the attributes of God, but if we turn away from that nature, we live for our physical nature and self alone.
THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

 

[Trailblazer]

Is being born good separate from the two nature's or are we born with much more of the higher nature?

I could agree that we naturally have both natures, but I'm too cynical to say that we are born more good than not.

See what I just posted to Cino.

I think we are born as a blank slate, neither good or bad, but with the potential to become either good or bad. Of course, that is an oversimplification because good and bad exist along a continuum, so nobody is one or the other. It is a matter of degree. That i explained in this short chapter:
THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

 

[Trailblazer]

I personally sometimes have a bit of a problem with the emphasis on 'Jesus' as opposed to 'The Christ'?

What do you mean by that?
I believe that Jesus was 'The Christ' which to me means He was the Christ Spirit and the emphasis should be on His Spirit, not on His physical body.

 

[Cino]

Well, without a body, no interaction with other people. So it won't do to de-emphasize bodies, either.

There are plenty of wonderful an terrible things in the realm of ideas, but without someone to act on them, they are powerless...

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, without a body, no interaction with other people. So it won't do to de-emphasize bodies, either.

There are plenty of wonderful an terrible things in the realm of ideas, but without someone to act on them, they are powerless...

I am not suggesting we do away with the body. The soul needs a body or it cannot express itself, at least not in this material world. The body is the vehicle through which the soul acts but the body is not the person himself.

 

[RJM]

Form vs. Function?

Bingo.

What do you mean by that?
I believe that Jesus was 'The Christ' which to me means He was the Christ Spirit and the emphasis should be on His Spirit, not on His physical body.

I mean The Christ is God manifest as Man and for Man -- the bridge between God and Man -- who demonstrates the divine as human, as opposed to say a fish, or a neutron star, because God is those things too?

I do not believe Jesus was just a prophet or a messenger. I believe Jesus was/is The Christ.

I also believe that man's job is with his own soul and own salvation, not with trying to save the planet. A person will sow what good he can, but I don't believe there will ever be a perfect world, or even much of a better one?

I believe this world is a testing place of the spirit as Buddhists believe, the ideal place to find enlightenment as to the root and end of suffering.

But of course others are entitled to their own beliefs, which cause no harm to anyone.

 

[RJM]

salvation is not from original sin because I do not believe we are all born in sin. I believe we are all born good, since we are made in the image of God

I believe original sin is the fact we are born into nature, into animal bodies that require us to take life to sustain our own. Every breath or sip of water kills tiny unseen creatures, etc. We cannot avoid it?