Christian worship service

..The problem comes when a religion asserts right fr the outset that it intends to establish a one world government and one world faith?

A religion?
Nay! It is mankind who squabble over who is "in command".

..the very concept of one world religious government sets alarm bells going.

Depends what it's criteria's are .. what its motives are. Nothing in this world is perfect due to our weaknesses,
but evil cannot be left unchecked.

So the discussion is not about religion, but religious government..

Is it? Govt. is about people .. religion is about the Divine.
 
A religion?
Nay! It is mankind who squabble over who is "in command".



Depends what it's criteria's are .. what its motives are. Nothing in this world is perfect due to our weaknesses,
but evil cannot be left unchecked.



Is it? Govt. is about people .. religion is about the Divine.
Ok. But from your comments I conclude you believe your own religion is the perfect and correct one to govern the whole human race?

The Bahai believe it is their religion would best do the job.

I differ, and although I grant both of you the right to believe and practice as you see fit, I have no interest in adopting your own religious beliefs. Nor in promoting my own religion to a world government theocracy. I would fiercely resist the idea.

So where do we go from here?
 
Let God decide about the rest of the world. Practice your own faith and look after your own children and community. Leave the rest of us alone. Imo
 
Let me know when the fathers learn how to breast feed a baby. :rolleyes:
Oh, come on.

But for the sake of playing along: bottle feeding works well, both with infant milk/formula and pumped human milk. My child who was bottle fed grew into an intelligent, able bodied adult, if you want first hand anecdotal evidence.
There are ways to approach the challenge of raising a child which do not require mothers to be full time caretakers and fathers to be full-time wage earners. Don't Baha'is follow the progress of social development that took place since the 1950s? Are they really stuck in time as you seem to imply? I ask because it has been my impression that Baha'is tend to be very much into social progress.

Do you really think that all truth should be judged by what modern civilizations do.

No, I have a more nuanced view. But as part of that, I do think that the relatively recent progress in freedom and equality and solidarity really is progress, from a worse society to a better one, and so I really think that excluding women from the universal House of Justice is a throw back, a regression, a set back, a loss of something important and valuable.

Edited to add: this is how your faith is perceived by me, from the outside. Telling us non-believers "it is not what it looks like", is not very useful. If you don't want to let it stand like that, saying "You have prejudices" doesn't help much.

Trailblazer is a psychologist, isn't she? What is her opinion about the kind of communication where you invalidate someone's perceptions rather than responding to them?
 
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Baha'ism supports the essential worth of all religions and the unity and equality of all people. Given the historical conflict of religion through the ages, it is difficult to imagine theological practices of unification.
Another question regarding Baha'ism is forgiveness and salvation? Are they the same as in Christianity? How is it different?

I have a personal relationship with God, and although I may not see His true form i feel Him in me. I act on His behalf without fear or intimidation. Do you feel the same way with Bahal'?

Is there a ritual regarding the acceptance of Bahal converts?

You mentioned meeting other members of Bahal' in forums, but not in attendance of worship services at temples? Do you miss the social aspect of group worship services?

Curious, does Bahal use the elements of communion, wine, bread/blood, body of Christ?
 
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It is interesting that Truthseeker9 and Trailblazer are newbies, know each other and support the same belief. Is something happening or about to happen? Coincidence or a time for faith? I'm not paranoid but something is amiss.
What's amiss? I think they want to talk about their faith, which is part of interfaith dialogue, and once they get used to the vibe of this forum, the discussions will probably become more fun.

Sorry for having hijacked your thread.
 
It is interesting that Truthseeker9 and Trailblazer are newbies, know each other and support the same belief. Something is amiss.
You may have missed the posts where @Trailblazer explained their friendship, which they have developed on other forums? Nothing sinister, lol. I am enjoying their posts, and the debate they open up.
 
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What the Baha'i Faith envisions is a federalized system of government like the United States, with only questions of international concern decided with the centralized government. Before I say any more let me quote from Shoghi Effendi:

The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded. This commonwealth must, as far as we can visualize it, consist of a world legislature, whose members will, as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and will enact such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples. A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth. A world tribunal will adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system. A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity. A world metropolis will act as the nerve center of a world civilization, the focus towards which the unifying forces of life will converge and from which its energizing influences will radiate. A world language will either be invented or chosen from among the existing languages and will be taught in the schools of all the federated nations as an auxiliary to their mother tongue. A world script, a world literature, a uniform and universal system of currency, of weights and measures, will simplify and facilitate intercourse and understanding among the nations and races of mankind. In such a world society, science and religion, the two most potent forces in human life, will be reconciled, will coöperate, and will harmoniously develop. The press will, under such a system, while giving full scope to the expression of the diversified views and convictions of mankind, cease to be mischievously manipulated by vested interests, whether private or public, and will be liberated from the influence of contending governments and peoples. The economic resources of the world will be organized, its sources of raw materials will be tapped and fully utilized, its markets will be coördinated and developed, and the distribution of its products will be equitably regulated.

National rivalries, hatreds, and intrigues will cease, and racial animosity and prejudice will be replaced by racial amity, understanding and coöperation. The causes of religious strife will be permanently removed, economic barriers and restrictions will be completely abolished, and the inordinate distinction between classes will be obliterated. Destitution on the one hand, and gross accumulation of ownership on the other, will disappear. The enormous energy dissipated and wasted on war, whether economic or political, will be consecrated to such ends as will extend the range of human inventions and technical development, to the increase of the productivity of mankind, to the extermination of disease, to the extension of scientific research, to the raising of the standard of physical health, to the sharpening and refinement of the human brain, to the exploitation of the unused and unsuspected resources of the planet, to the prolongation of human life, and to the furtherance of any other agency that can stimulate the intellectual, the moral, and spiritual life of the entire human race.

A world federal system, ruling the whole earth and exercising unchallengeable authority over its unimaginably vast resources, blending and embodying the ideals of both the East and the West, liberated from the curse of war and its miseries, and bent on the exploitation of all the available sources of energy on the surface of the planet, a system in which Force is made the servant of Justice, whose life is sustained by its universal recognition of one God and by its allegiance to one common Revelation— such is the goal towards which humanity, impelled by the unifying forces of life, is moving.

Shoghi Effendi, “The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh” , 7.109
This is the quote that you didn't see earlier
 
Thanks for explaining.

And my thanks to all members for their patience when some of their early posts get flagged for moderation. I recognize it is a bit inconvenient and can add some confusion to the thread order, but it is unfortunately necessary to keep the worst spam off the forum.
The message just appeared to the viewers and now they won't see it. I just tried to reply to the message so that they could see but once again it said it was invisible to normal members. What can I do? I don't like this system. I think you should put the post visible later in the order so people can see it.
 
It is unknown exactly what the world government will be like exactly. I believe that it will be different in each country. But the rights of all people will be respected, including the right to have a say in what happens, and freedom to believe as one wants. I got this message earlier from the Universal House of Justice:

Mr. Duane Dawson
Dear Bahá’í Friend,
The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018,
seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response.

It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:
Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West,
democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old
World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial,
religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every
organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be
its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every
minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it.
(The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006,
2015 printing), p. 53)
With loving Bahá’í greetings,
Department of the Secretariat
I really do not know much about the World Order of Baha'u'llah and what is envisioned for the future. @ Truthseeker9 would know a lot more than me. I do not generally get into discussing politics, it is not an interest of mine. I also live fully in the present, not in the future. Not even the UHJ knows what the World Order will look like.
Not really the details I was hoping for, but you don't always get what you want! Thanks for sharing what you have.

Another thing that bothers me are people who are illogical
Hehe, well there's a difference between us, to me people are mostly illogical most of the time. My time is spent navigating this madness! But there is some beauty to it as well.
 
The message just appeared to the viewers and now they won't see it. I just tried to reply to the message so that they could see but once again it said it was invisible to normal members. What can I do? I don't like this system. I think you should put the post visible later in the order so people can see it.
The post will be visible after moderator clearance by @StevePame, I believe. But Steve is in America, so there's the time lag. It is very frustrating, and it skews the debate.

Please be patient until the filters are lifted and your comments and links automatically get the green light. I am not a moderator, and I don't like the system much either. But it seems to be the only way because this is a small site and @StevePame has a busy day job. Only last week the filters were lifted to accommodate a new member who seemed a bit radical but generally ok -- and he immediately started posting anti-Jewish hate links.

The filters are activated by certain words and phrases, only the moderator knows what they may be. Apparently some of the stuff is incredibly bad and nasty. You are already a valuable member. I hope the filters are lifted soon for your content. We don't want to lose you @Truthseeker9
Best wishes
:)
 
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No, I have a more nuanced view. But as part of that, I do think that the relatively recent progress in freedom and equality and solidarity really is progress, from a worse society to a better one, and so I really think that excluding women from the universal House of Justice is a throw back, a regression, a set back, a loss of something important and valuable.
All men being on the Universal of Justice is not a set back in freedom and equality and solidarity. We believe in all those things, as shown by other things we've said. It's just that the UHJ is all men. I don't understand why you fixate on that so much and exclude everything else we've said. As I said in a Baha'i world women are free to do what they want, except be elected to the UHJ. How can that be a bad world? Try to be more utilitarian and not so ideological.
 
The post will be visible after moderator clearance by @StevePame, I believe. But Steve is in America, so there's the time lag. It is very frustrating, and it skews the debate.

Please be patient until the filters are lifted and your comments and links automatically get the green light. I am not a moderator, and I don't like the system much either. But it seems to be the only way because this is a small site and @StevePame has a busy day job. Only last week the filters were lifted to accommodate a new member who seemed a bit radical but generally ok -- and he immediately started posting anti-Jewish hate links.

The filters are activated by certain words and phrases, only the moderator knows what they may be. Apparently some of the stuff is incredibly bad and nasty. You are already a valuable member. I hope the filters are lifted soon for your content. We don't want to lose you @Truthseeker9
Best wishes
:)
No, you won't lose me, but I am frustrated.
 
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I don't understand why you fixate on that so much and exclude everything else we've said.
@Cino is always a strong supporter of women's rights, lol.

However at risk of labouring the point, the big issue is not with the Bahai religion, but with the political aspect of aiming to establish a world government that follows Bahai principles.

The mission statement that you posted earlier is impossibly idealistic to outsiders:
What the Baha'i Faith envisions is a federalized system of government like the United States, with only questions of international concern decided with the centralized government. Before I say any more let me quote from Shoghi Effendi:

The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded. This commonwealth must, as far as we can visualize it, consist of a world legislature, whose members will, as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and will enact such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples. A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth. A world tribunal will adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system. A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity. A world metropolis will act as the nerve center of a world civilization, the focus towards which the unifying forces of life will converge and from which its energizing influences will radiate. A world language will either be invented or chosen from among the existing languages and will be taught in the schools of all the federated nations as an auxiliary to their mother tongue. A world script, a world literature, a uniform and universal system of currency, of weights and measures, will simplify and facilitate intercourse and understanding among the nations and races of mankind. In such a world society, science and religion, the two most potent forces in human life, will be reconciled, will coöperate, and will harmoniously develop. The press will, under such a system, while giving full scope to the expression of the diversified views and convictions of mankind, cease to be mischievously manipulated by vested interests, whether private or public, and will be liberated from the influence of contending governments and peoples. The economic resources of the world will be organized, its sources of raw materials will be tapped and fully utilized, its markets will be coördinated and developed, and the distribution of its products will be equitably regulated.

National rivalries, hatreds, and intrigues will cease, and racial animosity and prejudice will be replaced by racial amity, understanding and coöperation. The causes of religious strife will be permanently removed, economic barriers and restrictions will be completely abolished, and the inordinate distinction between classes will be obliterated. Destitution on the one hand, and gross accumulation of ownership on the other, will disappear. The enormous energy dissipated and wasted on war, whether economic or political, will be consecrated to such ends as will extend the range of human inventions and technical development, to the increase of the productivity of mankind, to the extermination of disease, to the extension of scientific research, to the raising of the standard of physical health, to the sharpening and refinement of the human brain, to the exploitation of the unused and unsuspected resources of the planet, to the prolongation of human life, and to the furtherance of any other agency that can stimulate the intellectual, the moral, and spiritual life of the entire human race.

A world federal system, ruling the whole earth and exercising unchallengeable authority over its unimaginably vast resources, blending and embodying the ideals of both the East and the West, liberated from the curse of war and its miseries, and bent on the exploitation of all the available sources of energy on the surface of the planet, a system in which Force is made the servant of Justice, whose life is sustained by its universal recognition of one God and by its allegiance to one common Revelation— such is the goal towards which humanity, impelled by the unifying forces of life, is moving.

Shoghi Effendi, “The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh” , 7.109
It is fine to talk this kind of stuff, but how to get it done and how to protect fine ideas from the nasty folks who are always looking for the gap? Idealism is fine. But to people like me it's just pipe dreams. No offence.

So while Bahai's stated aim and mission is world government, suspicions by non-members will continue, imo?
 
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I need to emphasise again that, from an outsider's perspective, although you Bahai guys sincerely believe your own religion is the best one to rule the whole world, a lot of other folks disagree. We have our own ideas, secular democracy being one. That's where the rubber hits the road?
 
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So confused. Doesn't everyone believe their religion , or lack thereof, is the best and that's why they're in it?
Yes. But that doesn't give anyone the right -- obligation even -- to mission to merge the church and state? The separation of church and state is a hard won freedom.
 
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