Finding the Garden of Eden and the City of GOD

[Cino]

the culture covers the whole middle danube basin. they were not saying the garden is on the outskirts of belgrade.
the sopot lengyel are the folks that carried on the tradition of big circles and sky worshship and they have the correct male genetics [j2, e-v13].

the pillars of heracles were on the outskirts of belgrade in 476BC.

I think that ode by Pindar, which you linked, is from 476BC. The time when the lower danube was a lake, lies rather farther back in history, by a few 10k years.

I still think that mutual respect and understanding would work better at furthering happiness and peace, than shoehorning legends onto archaeological and paleogenetic findings would.

 

[ShemTov]

I think that ode by Pindar, which you linked, is from 476BC. The time when the lower danube was a lake, lies rather farther back in history, by a few 10k years.

I still think that mutual respect and understanding would work better at furthering happiness and peace, than shoehorning legends onto archaeological and paleogenetic findings would.

lower danube? ister starts at belgrade [see virgil sava river ister danube...] so that is the middle danube.
the middle danube was a lake from the end of the ice age until it was finally drained by prince eugene of savoy after he expelled the ottomans. he considered this engineering work his greatest achievement since even the romans could not do it completely.
eugenes "wifes" castle is where centrum mundi is. its luds shore [lydda where the damascus gate points]. he was the man that saved it all for us i think. he was supposed to be the pope.

the children of eden were in thalassar. should remind you of thalassa.
yima lived about about 7500bc [6000bc plus 33 generations from zoroaster?] he built a big sets of circles [kikkar] then a rectangular "garden"

the beauty of it is not having to shoehorn. a physical feature many kilometers across precludes that.

 

[ShemTov]

Perception is everything. Then as now, God has always made himself known to the simplest of men. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear, as the Bible puts it. Just that in modern times many have become too caught up in their earthly existence and the traditions of man to see it. Only recognizing what exists for them in the flesh and not what their spirit perceives.

Well there you go.

all will respond to what is real and they can touch and see and understand its reason and purpose. it must make the same simple sense to all. kids, farmers, physicists, priests, atheists etc etc etc

 

[Cino]

the middle danube was a lake from the end of the ice age until it was finally drained by prince eugene of savoy after he expelled the ottomans. he considered this engineering work his greatest achievement since even the romans could not do it completely.

A brief search turned up evidence that he was a powerful and successful military commander. I could not find references to any feats of civil engineering.

Any large lake remainder of the pannonian sea from millions of years ago, such as the slavonian lake, dried up at least 10k years ago.

Are you getting the chronology mixed up?

 

[ShemTov]

A brief search turned up evidence that he was a powerful and successful military commander. I could not find references to any feats of civil engineering.

Any large lake remainder of the pannonian sea from millions of years ago, such as the slavonian lake, dried up at least 10k years ago.

Are you getting the chronology mixed up?

well to find out about eugenes engineering you have to research the area where he did it not the man. he personally took possession of the entire banat region. banat was historically called Gad coincidetly. he and count mercy took possession, litely developed and in some cases lived themselves on the most critical historic relics such as the city of troy on mercys own estate. eugene however renames the doors of his city house in vienna hercules, aeneas and antenor to celebrate. eugene drained the "vidovaje ocean".

so when do you think the city of GOD dates to? okeanos started to dry up at 10kbc. did not finish till eugene. the "ZEE" is still in the middle of europe on maps from the 16th century. ptolemy has southern europe as an island completely surrounded by okeanos on his map. its not a mystery.

from the link i am having a hard time getting posted... there are satellite photos at the same place for he who asked about them.

THE LATEST PALEOGEOGRAPHICAL REALITIES OF THE PANNONIAN BASIN IN THE LATE QUATERNARY: THE RELICT PANNONIAN LAKE, ITS SUCCESSOR AND THE FINALIZATION
OF THE DANUBE WAY IN THE UPPER HOLOCENE
TICLEANU M., NICOLESCU R., GHEUCA I., EMIL R., ION A., COCIUBA I.
GEOLOGICAL INSTITUTE OF ROMANIA, 1 CARANSEBES STREET, BUCURESTI 32, ROMANIA,
SCIENTIFIC ANNALS, SCHOOL OF GEOLOGY, ARISTOTLE UNIVERSITY OF THESSALONIKI
PROCEEDINGS OF THE XIX CBGA CONGRESS, THESSALONIKI, GREECE SPECIAL VOLUME 99 519-526 THESSALONIKI 2010

9. CONCLUSIONS
PLACING IN TIME THE PRINCIPAL MOMENTS IN THE PALEOGEOGRAPHCAL EVOLUTION OF THE PANNONIAN AREA IN THE LATE QUATERNARY, THE FOLLOWING SUCCESSION CAN BE OBTAINED:
1 – THE STRIKE THROUGH OF THE RIDGE CONNECTING THE CARPATHIANS WITH THE BALKANS IN A LOW SADDLE ZONE IN THE DANUBE GORGE MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE AT THE END OF THE LOWER PLEISTOCENE.
2 – THE EXACT STRIKE THROUGH POINT SEEMS TO BE PLACED IN THE NARROW PART OF THE OLD DANUBE WAY (GREBEN ZONE).
3 – THE STRIKE THROUGH SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN FACILITATED BY A STRIKE-SLIP ALONG AN IMPORTANT FAULT ORIENTED NW-SE.
4 – THE PANNONIAN LAKE SEEMS TO HAVE SURVIVED AT LEAST TILL THE END OF THE LOWER PLEISTOCENE AND THEN FOLLOWED A GRADUAL PROCESS OF RETIREMENT OF ITS SHORES.
5 – THIS RETIREMENT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN NOT SMOOTH, BUT IN STEPS SO, IN TIME, SEVERAL SUCCESSIVE SHORE ALIGNMENTS HAVE MAINTAINED FOR SOME TIME, WHOSE ALTITUDE CAN BE ESTABLISHED BY THE ANALYSIS OF THE GLACIS-TERRACE SYSTEMS AT THE BORDERS OF THE PANNONIAN DEPRESSION.
6 – THE FORMATION OF ACTUAL DANUBE GORGE BEGUN IN THE GREBEN ZONE AND CONTINUED, THROUGH RETROGRESSIVE EROSION, TO THE WEST, BY SUCCESSIVE CAPTURES OF THE RIVERS TRIBUTARY TO A MAIN STREAM, FLOWING TO THE PANNONIAN AREA.
7 – IN THE UPPER PLEISTOCENE A MORPHOLOGIC PECULIARITIES OF THE ALREADY FORMED GORGE WOULD ALLOW THE EXISTENCE OF A LACUSTRINE AREA IN THE SOUTHEASTERN PART OF THIS BASIN (THE RELICT PANNONIAN LAKE WITH THE SHORELINE AT ABOUT +100 M ELEVATION).
8 – THE RETIREMENT OF THE SHORES OF THIS LAKE COULD BE DUE ESPECIALLY TO THE MEGA-FLOODS, WHICH MADE THE SHORELINE TO LOWER TO THE +85 M ELEVATION.
9 – THIS SHORELINE SEEMS TO BE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE PALEOGEOGRAPHY OF THE LOWER HOLOCENE.
10 – THE FINALIZATION OF THE DANUBE WAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE ONLY IN THE UPPER HOLOCENE, CONDITIONED BY THE GRADUAL REMOVAL OF THE HINDRANCES ALONG IMPORTANT SECTORS OF THE DANUBE GORGE.

at the head end of the pelagos they say

"
The eroded material of all of these river terraces was transported toward the Danube as the final receiving water course of the Alpine drainage system. Thus, the Danube was heavily loaded with gravel and sand at the late glacial phase of the Wurm and beginning of the Holocene. The Danube, therefore, was not able to cut into its bed and had to transport the debris. For a long time the river flowed at the elevation of the former glacial terrace. The river system changed from braided to meandering. In this way.the gravel body was often reworked, internal sediment structures changed and the drift blocks concentrated at the base (EPPENSTEINER et al.,1973). Here also logs from oak, elm, willow were deposited. Remnants of the glacial terrace with ice wedges and loess cover can be recognized at the same elevation as Holocene, according to radiometric data showing results between 9,000-10,000 years BP west of Vienna (PIFFL,1971) and up to approximately 6,000-8,500 years BP (FINK,1977) east of it.
"

so it mostly drained in two major events

ps. almost every portrait of eugene has him pointing at the city of GOD. check it out.

peace

 

[Thomas]

Hi ShemTov —
I think you have to accept the nature of sacred texts. It is generally agreed that the first chapters of Genesis are mythology, and indeed a tapestry of mythological tales of the region that go way back. Fo example, the idea of the Biblical flood is older than the Jewish peoples to which that particular narrative belongs. Similarly, the idea of the Garden encompasses certain spiritual truths and ideas that are common to many traditions: The garden sits at centre of the world, the world is watered by the rivers that flow out of it, the tree in the midst, and so on. All of these are universal devices, and it was understood that they were not to be taken literally.

One must bear in mind that ancient peoples were not literal peoples. They never had the empirical focus we have today — everything to them was transparent, and showed the workings of the Gods.

For my pov, the problem is we've lost our 'mythic vision' — the spiritual has become opaque and solid, and we end up looking for solid, physical answers, when what we seek is not a physical, material thing.

it is catholic dogma that we are supposed to find it at GODs behest ...

Indeed, but the Scripture upon which that dogma is founded is quite explicit, as we declare in the Lord's Prayer: "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" (cf Matthew 6:10).

A search of the word 'Kingdom' in the New Testament will supply ample evidence to point out that it is not a physical location here on earth. Heaven is a state, not a place. Indeed, Christ answers your question: "And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21 my emphasis)

surely GOD made all types of people so he must satisfy them all to make them know him ... finding the actual garden might do the trick for everyone?

Two things here. One is that man is quite competent at ignoring the facts that are staring him in the face, so on that basis no. Man would just find a way to explain the garden away, or simply ignore its presence.

Secondly, and more importantly, were God to provide inarguable proof of His existence, then He takes away from man the freedom to decide whether to love and follow God or not. Scripture is all about this: what God wants, to use the term lightly, is for man to seek for Him, what He will not do is force Himself upon man (although there have been a few caveats — many prophets, for example, often wished God left them alone.) God does not want slaves.

I suppose its GODs fault I have questions.

No, but we must be open to answers, even should those answers be contrary to what we want to hear.

would the things by which we know HIM not be knowable by the most simple amongst us?

Are you not rather assuming that the most simple do not know? I rather think you're quite wrong here — the most simple often have the most profound faith.

well it was a walled garden.

LOL, I think the walled bit is for the benefit of us Catholics, who like to think they're the only ones here! Everyone else is very polite, and makes sure not to make any noise that might shatter our illusion!

 

[ShemTov]

Hi ShemTov —
I think you have to accept the nature of sacred texts. It is generally agreed that the first chapters of Genesis are mythology, and indeed a tapestry of mythological tales of the region that go way back. Fo example, the idea of the Biblical flood is older than the Jewish peoples to which that particular narrative belongs. Similarly, the idea of the Garden encompasses certain spiritual truths and ideas that are common to many traditions: The garden sits at centre of the world, the world is watered by the rivers that flow out of it, the tree in the midst, and so on. All of these are universal devices, and it was understood that they were not to be taken literally.

One must bear in mind that ancient peoples were not literal peoples. They never had the empirical focus we have today — everything to them was transparent, and showed the workings of the Gods.

For my pov, the problem is we've lost our 'mythic vision' — the spiritual has become opaque and solid, and we end up looking for solid, physical answers, when what we seek is not a physical, material thing.


Indeed, but the Scripture upon which that dogma is founded is quite explicit, as we declare in the Lord's Prayer: "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" (cf Matthew 6:10).

A search of the word 'Kingdom' in the New Testament will supply ample evidence to point out that it is not a physical location here on earth. Heaven is a state, not a place. Indeed, Christ answers your question: "And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21 my emphasis)


Two things here. One is that man is quite competent at ignoring the facts that are staring him in the face, so on that basis no. Man would just find a way to explain the garden away, or simply ignore its presence.

Secondly, and more importantly, were God to provide inarguable proof of His existence, then He takes away from man the freedom to decide whether to love and follow God or not. Scripture is all about this: what God wants, to use the term lightly, is for man to seek for Him, what He will not do is force Himself upon man (although there have been a few caveats — many prophets, for example, often wished God left them alone.) God does not want slaves.


No, but we must be open to answers, even should those answers be contrary to what we want to hear.


Are you not rather assuming that the most simple do not know? I rather think you're quite wrong here — the most simple often have the most profound faith.


LOL, I think the walled bit is for the benefit of us Catholics, who like to think they're the only ones here! Everyone else is very polite, and makes sure not to make any noise that might shatter our illusion!

the problem i think is that while the ethereal is preferred by the spiritual, the non-spiritual world is trying very hard and spending alot of money and time trying to prove its real... unbeknownst to the spiritual. you seem pretty confident there is nothing i say that you should hear and everything you say i better listen too. since only one of us is saying something new i guess one of us doesn't know that they don't know.

 

[Thomas]

the problem i think is that while the ethereal is preferred by the spiritual, the non-spiritual world is trying very hard and spending alot of money and time trying to prove its real...

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you expand?

you seem pretty confident there is nothing i say that you should hear and everything you say i better listen too.

I'm sorry if you got that impression, it's not what I intended. I'm certainly not telling anyone they must listen to me.

I have listened to what you said. I was simply replying from the orthodox Catholic and indeed Anglican perspective. Indeed, if we were supposed to look for the Garden, then I rather think the text itself would have said so.

Please bear in mind also that the text says:
"And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), so the immediate problem would be getting past the Cherubim, who I rather think will conceal and confound any attempt to find the Garden until such time as suits The Lord. And when that time comes, I think no-one will be in any doubt whatsover ...

... Lastly, it's worth noting that even though Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, they were not expelled from the Lord's Presence — He continued to talk with Can and Abel, for instance, and so too to Noah, who came many generations later ...

since only one of us is saying something new i guess one of us doesn't know that they don't know.

Well, I think it's fair to say that neither of us are saying anything new. I'm certainly not, and nor is your question.

 

[ShemTov]

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you expand?

i think from what i have seen here is that the spiritual people [pretty much everyone that answered] think that even though many texts from a variety of religions say the garden and the city are real and even where they are, they are not real and never were. they actually exist only in the ether even though that directly contradicts what is said and how things are to play out. the majority of people on earth have no contact with the ether. i guess those that think they are understanding of the ether will rule those that are not forever. don't think thats the way its supposed to play out.

as for new information? someone has drawn a line from the damascus gate and the kaaba to see where they cross before. did you know that? they put a little brass plate with the moon and star of david on it at the spot.
did you know the national geological institute of a european union country announced to an international group of geologists that they had found atlantis.
no doubt that you did.

so whats new with you?

 

[Cino]

as for new information? someone has drawn a line from the damascus gate and the kaaba to see where they cross before. did you know that? they put a little brass plate with the moon and star of david on it at the spot.
did you know the national geological institute of a european union country announced to an international group of geologists that they had found atlantis.

If you want to go all literalist materialist, then why not do it properly, cite the reference or post the link, name the names?

This intentional hand-waving vagueness does not serve your stated purpose of impressing scientific materialists and spiritually inclined people alike.

On a different topic, you mention "ether", and I suspect you don't mean the chemical compounds. But what do you mean by it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hi ShemTov —
..The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21 my emphasis)

Yes, indeed. Heaven and hell are spiritual concepts .. it is very much about our relationship with others.
"None will have a complete faith unless they wish for others what they wish for themselves"

 

[Thomas]

... even though many texts from a variety of religions say the garden and the city are real ...

This is the point, they actually they don't. I'm afraid that's an erroneous interpretation of the text.

Texts of the different traditions use a variety of narrative forms to express, in simple language, often very complex metaphysical or spiritual realities. The early chapters of Genesis do precisely that.

It's generally agreed, for example, that the seven days of the creation (including the day of rest) is analogical, rather than meaning seven periods of 24 hours. And the authors of the scripture knew that, and the language they used expressed that. I can explain the technicalities of the original Hebrew and later Greek and Latin that, once understood, makes clear that the temporal duration was not meant.

... the majority of people on earth have no contact with the ether.

Leaving Cino's question about the nature of the 'ether' you're referring to to one side, I dispute that the majority of the people on earth have no spiritual sensibility. I think that's an assumption.

i guess those that think they are understanding of the ether will rule those that are not forever.

Oooh, no, no no ... that's a very Gnostic and elitist notion!

The Christian take on that question rests on the Beatitudes in Matthew, specifically:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven" (5:3) and "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God" (5:8). There's no room for elitism in spiritual matters, that's a sure sign of something gone terribly amiss.

I have met many people whom I consider saints, but not one of them has ever said they've seen the spiritual realm, rather their faith in God sustains them, and God is with them in ways one might savour but cannot fathom ... but I have been assured that 'they walk with God' and in some cases I am absolutely sure of it.

someone has drawn a line from the damascus gate and the kaaba to see where they cross before. did you know that?

I'm really not sure what I'm supposed to make of it.

did you know the national geological institute of a european union country announced to an international group of geologists that they had found atlantis.

I don't doubt it, there's been so many claims over the years, but none proved, and Atlantis has got nothing to do with the Garden of Eden.

I would say if you're seeking the Garden, look inwards. Inside ourselves is where we'll find it ...

 

[Ahanu]

Richard Carrier just made a blog post related to this topic, concluding the Garden of Eden is in outer space here. I am curious about what everyone thinks about his post.

 

[Thomas]

Not impressed by the blog. Peer review of his writings seems highly skeptical, too.

The 'mythical Jesus' thing has too much contrary argument for it to be anything but fringe, at the moment.

 

[RJM]

did you know the national geological institute of a european union country announced to an international group of geologists that they had found atlantis.

Can you provide a link, please?

 

[RJM]

Do you mean this guy? I'm impressed by him. Does anyone else know about him?

 

[Ahanu]

Do you mean this guy? I'm impressed by him. Does anyone else know about him?

Nope. But it’s fascinating.

 

[ShemTov]

atlantis is a twice attempted plagiarization of vendidad fargard 2 which describes the construction and destruction of Zion and survivalists in the garden.

Midrash ha-Gadol
Eden is a unique place on earth, but no creature is permitted to know its exact location. In the future, during the messianic period God will reveal to Israel the path to Eden.

this is the spot where hatim line and the line from the Damascus Gate cross

lud grandson of Shem. his hill.

"Indeed , it shall be said of Zion, ' Every man was born there '. "

peace

 

[muhammad_isa]

Eden is a unique place on earth, but no creature is permitted to know its exact location. In the future, during the messianic period God will reveal to Israel the path to Eden.

..and to you be peace.
Does it really make any difference whether "the garden of Eden" is a physical geographical place or not?
Maybe it does.

The idea of living forever on planet earth by eating a fruit which God has previously forbidden
seems rather contradictory to me.
Furthermore, Is there some kind of magic involved, that means that legs cannot be amputated etc. ?
i.e. Is physical reality no longer applicable?

It makes more sense to believe in some transformation of reality, which is easy for God as He is able to do all things.
It need not involve going back to the "scene of the crime".

Literal readings of scriptural text can often mislead.

 

[PricelessPearl]

firstly i am a canadian anglican and just barely anglican. i was not terribly spiritual or anything else.
so i was in quarantine with little to do but read and i came to wonder if GOD has not finally given us the scientific tools to finally find the garden etc.
it is catholic dogma that we are supposed to find it at GODs behest and jewish texts say the same plus they built a landmark [damascus gate] to point to the dwelling place of god. the kaaba is oriented so the descendents of adam can use it as a guide to find the garden again when they are allowed back in.

to me it would seem to be the thing to do with all of our technology and access to texts. has anyone actually tried? i would assume its generally thought of as a pointless exercise?

peace.

Hi ShemTov,

I am new to the forum as well.

I would say that the garden is one’s mind, which we must cultivate and plant that which we want to grow, which fruit we want to bring forth. The mind is a battle field or a well tended garden.

In scripture house or household is also used to describe one’s house (upper room often appears in scripture as well as the members of one’s household).

City of God is where God dwells and for myself, as God’s temple, that is within me (and every person). But I think in scripture it also tends to refer to a certain level of consciousness and creativity.