Jesus vs the Church

What do I think of the video? I think it is a slick misinterpretation in order to promote something, and I didn't bother to stick around to find out what.

Essentially this is advertisement, not edification.

Once again someone trying to tear down rather than build up. Don't pay any attention to what we do, just look at all the bad in everyone else...
 
I see that the Church no longer reflects the Spirit of Christ brightly to humanity, the power of its influence has been taken. Baha'u'llah who has come as the King of Kings stated “From two ranks amongst men power hath been seized: kings and ecclesiastics.”

And Revelation does mentioned there will be a new heaven and new earth, which appears to me to carry on the creation updated style so to speak. It doesn't say nature will be done away with. Actually, I doubt nature can be done away with, even heaven is nature, just not of an earthly nature. So, this makes sense to me... so far, but ya never know, I am still reading stuff - Lol!

Baha'u''llah has said this is the New Messenger and the Message. They are the New Heaven and the new earth of understanding.

The Bab was the Dawn of this new day of God, a unique day as it saw Two Messengers, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, the Bab being the dawn or Elijah come first.

This spoiler is Baha'u'llah writing about the birth of the Bab, and how all things are made new. A new Heaven and a New Earth.

Birth of the Báb "In the name of the One born on this day, Him Whom God hath made to be the Herald of His name, the Almighty, the All-Loving!

This is a Tablet We have addressed unto that night wherein the heavens and the earth were illumined by a Light that cast its radiance over the entire creation.

Blessed art thou, O night! For through thee was born the Day of God, a Day which We have ordained to be the lamp of salvation unto the denizens of the cities of names, the chalice of victory unto the champions of the arenas of eternity, and the dawning-place of joy and exultation unto all creation.

Immeasurably exalted is God, the Maker of the heavens, Who hath caused this Day to speak forth that Name whereby the veils of idle fancy have been rent asunder, the mists of vain imaginings have been dispelled, and His name “the Self-Subsisting” hath dawned above the horizon of certitude. Through Thee the choice wine of everlasting life hath been unsealed, the doors of knowledge and utterance have been unlocked before the peoples of the earth, and the breezes of the All-Merciful have been wafted over every region. All glory be to that hour wherein the Treasure of God, the All-Powerful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, hath appeared!

O concourse of earth and heaven! This is that first night, which God hath made to be a sign of that second night, whereon was born He Whom no praise can befittingly extol and no attribute describe. Well is it with him who reflecteth upon them both: Verily, he will find their outer reality to correspond to their inner essence, and will become acquainted with the divine mysteries that lie enshrined in this Revelation, a Revelation through which the foundations of misbelief have been shaken, the idols of superstition have been shattered, and the banner hath been unfurled which proclaimeth, “No God is there but Him, the Powerful, the Exalted, the Incomparable, the Protector, the Mighty, the Inaccessible.”


On this night the fragrance of nearness was wafted, the portals of reunion at the end of days were flung open, and all created things were moved to exclaim: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Lord of all names, Who is come with world-embracing sovereignty!” On this night the Concourse on high celebrated the praise of their Lord, the Exalted, the Most Glorious, and the realities of the divine names extolled Him Who is the King of the beginning and the end in this Revelation, a Revelation through whose potency the mountains have hastened unto Him Who is the All-Sufficing, the Most High, and the hearts have turned towards the countenance of their Best-Beloved, and the leaves have been stirred into motion by the breezes of yearning, and the trees have raised their voices in joyful reply to the call of Him Who is the Unconstrained, and the entire earth hath trembled with longing in its desire to attain reunion with the Eternal King, and all things have been made new by that concealed Word which hath appeared in this mighty Name.

O night of the All-Bountiful! In thee do We verily behold the Mother Book. Is it a Book, in truth, or rather a child begotten? Nay, by Myself! Such words pertain to the realm of names, whilst God hath sanctified this Book above all names. Through it the Hidden Secret and the Treasured Mystery have been revealed. Nay, by My life! All that hath been mentioned pertaineth to the realm of attributes, whereas the Mother Book standeth supreme above this. Through it have appeared the manifestations of “There is no God but God” over them all. Nay, while such things have been proclaimed to all people, in the estimation of thy Lord naught but His ear is capable of hearing them. Blessed are those that are well assured!

Whereupon, dumbfounded, the Pen of the Most High cried out: “O Thou Who art exalted above all names! I adjure Thee by Thy might that encompasseth the heavens and the earth to exempt me from mentioning Thee, for I myself have been called into being by virtue of Thy creative power. How, then, can I depict that which all created things are powerless to describe? And yet, I swear by Thy glory, were I to proclaim that wherewith Thou hast inspired me, the entire creation would pass away from joy and ecstasy, how much more then would it be overwhelmed before the billows of the ocean of Thine utterance in this most luminous, most exalted and transcendent Spot! Absolve, O Lord, this faltering Pen from magnifying so august a station, and deal mercifully with me, O my Possessor and my King. Overlook then my trespasses in Thy presence. Thou, verily, art the Lord of bounty, the All-Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous.”

I see the Baha'i writings have explained this topic in great detail.

Regards Tony
 
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I see that the Church no longer reflects the Spirit of Christ brightly to humanity, the power of its influence has been taken.
I don't see it as an either/or, but a both. There is nothing stopping God from adding light elsewhere with other faiths and light and knowledge. There should be no contest, it's all one spirit so far as I can tell. No reason to pit religions against each other, that has gone on for far too long. Better to add all the lights together.
 
I don't see it as an either/or, but a both. There is nothing stopping God from adding light elsewhere with other faiths and light and knowledge. There should be no contest, it's all one spirit so far as I can tell. No reason to pit religions against each other, that has gone on for far too long. Better to add all the lights together.

That is what is offered. 'All these holy, divine Manifestations are one. They have served one God, promulgated the same truth, founded the same institutions and reflected the same light......Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may appear..." Baha'u'llah

We can consider, that just as the world has seasons and the sun arises on a new day, so does the spiritual worlds of God go through the same process.

Regards Tony
 
That is what is offered. To "Be lovers of the light no matter from whence it shines".

We can consider, that just as the world has seasons and the sun arises on a new day, so does the spiritual worlds of God go through the same process.

Regards Tony
But you judged the church as having no light. That is what I find problematic. You don't have to cut down a religion in order to show yours has light. They all have light. And all are finite in their outlooks since the finite cannot, by its very nature observe the whole. All the little lights here on earth contribute to that whole however. So why make them fight amongst themselves in order to get up on one of them?
 
But you judged the church as having no light. That is what I find problematic. You don't have to cut down a religion in order to show yours has light. They all have light. And all are finite in their outlooks since the finite cannot, by its very nature observe the whole. All the little lights here on earth contribute to that whole however. So why make them fight amongst themselves in order to getup on one of them?

It is not I that is the judge.

Darkness is part of this world, there is a Biblical passage worth meditation.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

It is for me to challenge myself to reflect the light, it is for God and God alone to show us the light, when we have chosen darkness.

Regards Tony
 
I see that the Church no longer reflects the Spirit of Christ brightly to humanity, the power of its influence has been taken. Baha'u'llah who has come as the King of Kings stated “From two ranks amongst men power hath been seized: kings and ecclesiastics.”

Every revolution that ever took place was faced with the problem of reorganizing the power taken from the old regime.

How did your faith deal with it? What is your power structure like? In what ways is it superior to the old one, and what are lessons learned, for future prophets to avoid?
 
Every revolution that ever took place was faced with the problem of reorganizing the power taken from the old regime.

What I see is that when God sends a Messenger, the revolution is our will against God's Will.

The Messenger only gives us a choice, as the power they want for us is the power born of choice, the choice in Spirit to change our own hearts. As each heart changes, then a like minded community grows.

How did your faith deal with it?

Baha'u'llah says that the way we change the world is to first change our own selves.

What is your power structure like?

The Baha'i Administrative Order has given no individual Baha'i power. There is an elected structure of at this time 9 people elected at the Local, National and International levels. The local and National get elected yearly, the International Universal House of Justice gets elected every 5 years. This system is unlike any current political system, but contains aspects of them.

In what ways is it superior to the old one, and what are lessons learned, for future prophets to avoid?

I think what has changed in this age is that there is an unbreakable Covernant. As such no attempt to break the Baha'i Faith into sects will work, all who try, will fade away and many many did try and despite all the turmoil, the Covenant has stood the test of time.

Personally I think the lessons are for us, as the Messengers gives the Message as God asks then to do. It see it is us that needs to avoid the rejection of that message.

Regards Tony
 
What I see is that when God sends a Messenger, the revolution is our will against God's Will.
Then I completely misunderstood what you wrote, about power having been taken from the worldly and priestly hierarchies. So how do you want to be understood, is it God's will for us to obey the kings and priests?

I think what has changed in this age is that there is an unbreakable Covernant. As such no attempt to break the Baha'i Faith into sects will work, all who try, will fade away and many many did try and despite all the turmoil, the Covenant has stood the test of time.

Aren't there a lesser and a greater Covenant in your faith? Which one are you referring to, here?
 
1 John 4:1-11, KJV

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
 
But you judged the church as having no light.
It is often the case that people who stand in their own light, as it were, cannot see the light outside.

You don't have to cut down a religion in order to show yours has light.
Indeed so, and there is a constant desire to do so, it's in the nature of man.

What is so often, and so tellingly misunderstood, is the idea of 'progressive revelation'.

Revelation is a self-disclosure of the Absolute in and to the relative, and 'It' reveals 'Itself' in a form appropriate to its people, place and time.

Every Revelation is complete and entire to itself, with its own doctrines and dogmas, its rites and rituals, disclosing everything that's required to attain what it promises, be it salvation, redemption, deliverance, etc.

For a Revelation to abrogate what has gone before is, effectively, for God to change His mind, that what was Good and Right and Just and True yesterday, is not so today.

In the wake of Revelation, invisible essence of the formless Absolute is accessible through the provisional forms that speak to one or more of the sensible realm. All these forms are shaped, contained and explained by the related Scripture, which is itself an efficacious form, an extension of Revelation through space and time. Thus Christ says "And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one" (John 17:22-23).

This Eucharistic Mystery lies at the heart of the Church. The theology of theosis, or deification, is most evident in John and Paul, and was picked up by the first of the Fathers: "the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, preface).

The point here is that Sacramental Union has not been revoked. God speaks from beyond time, place and contingency. His word is eternal, timeless. The 'metaphysical error' in the concept of 'progressive revelation' is the assumption that, in effect, God has changed His mind. That what was true yesterday is not true today.

The idea that a subsequent Revelation discloses something new about God is illusory. The Uncreate makes Itself known, but always within that the traditions speak of the Absoluteness, the Unknowability, etc., of the Divine.

The idea that any revelation reveals 'more' or 'better', or more accurately or efficaciously, is an error of anthropomorphism, it applies to the Uncreate something of the nature of the created.

The outwards forms can become opaque, the message distorted, but this again is the activity of man. For those with a (relatively) pure heart, the Way is open.

The idea of a kind of meta-religion which encompasses and surpasses all other religions is, again, the error of assumption.

The idea that revelations are part of a jigsaw which we need to put together, or that even to this day there are still pieces missing, is mistaken.

The Traditionalist message is clear: Find a Tradition that speaks to you, and stick to it. To look for a Tradition that speaks for all Traditions, is misguided.
 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 6:27&version=NIV
John 6:27
New International Version

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

Is there a contradiction between 'Paulism' and the words of Christ?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians 3:10-13&version=NIV
Thessalonians 3:10-13
New International Version

10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies.
12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat.
13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what
is good.

... Or are they both expressing two different ideas? Is John saying man should not work only for physical food?
Paul was a tent maker by trade, and earned his keep during his ministry.

Jesus was a carpenter.
 
The 'metaphysical error' in the concept of 'progressive revelation' is the assumption that, in effect, God has changed His mind. That what was true yesterday is not true today.

The idea that a subsequent Revelation discloses something new about God is illusory. The Uncreate makes Itself known, but always within that the traditions speak of the Absoluteness, the Unknowability, etc., of the Divine.

The idea that any revelation reveals 'more' or 'better', or more accurately or efficaciously, is an error of anthropomorphism, it applies to the Uncreate something of the nature of the created..

Makes sense to me. "the nature of God" is not constantly changing :)


The idea that revelations are part of a jigsaw which we need to put together, or that even to this day there are still pieces missing, is mistaken.

The Traditionalist message is clear: Find a Tradition that speaks to you, and stick to it. To look for a Tradition that speaks for all Traditions, is misguided.

A bit too simplistic. Tradition is just that .. tradition. Almighty God has sent many of his messengers / warners to mankind, as we can see in the Bible. The core of their message has not changed. We need to ask God to guide us, and save us from following a tradition just because our fathers' or our nation did.
More to the point, we need to ponder on the origin of creeds .. the origin of beliefs.
Do they make sense .. are people who claim to be divine authorities to be taken seriously etc.
 
are people who claim to be divine authorities to be taken seriously etc.
Indeed.

Matthew 7:1-18

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
 
Then I completely misunderstood what you wrote, about power having been taken from the worldly and priestly hierarchies. So how do you want to be understood, is it God's will for us to obey the kings and priests?

I have come to consider that in this age, the age where our ability in science has multiplied exponentially, the ability to unlock the capabilities of mind in spirit has also likewise been unlocked. We are all responsible for our own choices.

Baha'u'llah offered the Message to the priests of all faiths and gave them warning that if they looked at history, it was the learned in each age that were the first to reject God's Messenger and it was also them that persecuted the Messenger. So those that say they held the knowledge of God and taught the masses, were the first to reject God in a subsequent age.

Baha'u'llah said he did not wish for them to fall from grace, there is much written on this, this is one example of what was offered;

".... O concourse of bishops! Ye are the stars of the heaven of My knowledge. My mercy desireth not that ye should fall upon the earth. My justice, however, declareth: 'This is that which the Son (Jesus) hath decreed.' And whatsoever hath proceeded out of His blameless, His truth-speaking, trustworthy mouth, can never be altered... "

The same as with the Kings and Rulers, Baha’u’llah wrote to them and told them what to do and warned them what rejection would bring about to all humanity, in offering this to a ruler Baha'u'llah also said;

"... It is not Our wish to address thee words of condemnation, out of regard for the dignity We conferred upon thee in this mortal life. We, verily, have chosen courtesy, and made it the true mark of such as are nigh unto Him. Courtesy is, in truth, a raiment which fitteth all men, whether young or old. Well is it with him that adorneth his temple therewith, and woe unto him who is deprived of this great bounty. Hadst thou been sincere in thy words, thou wouldst have not cast behind thy back the Book of God, when it was sent unto thee by Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Wise. We have proved thee through it, and found thee other than that which thou didst profess. Arise, and make amends for that which escaped thee..... "

The rights of Kings, Queens and elected representatives has been upheld in the Baha'i Writings, and to all those that rule with Justice and mercy, it is in Baha'i law that we will aid that ruler in their goals.

The priesthood has been abolished and the affairs of the Spirit is now in the hands of elected representatives. So no one persons view can become the cause of division.

Big topic, many tangents, Regards Tony
 
Aren't there a lesser and a greater Covenant in your faith? Which one are you referring to, here?

Yes you are correct and I was referring to the Lesser Covenant about division in the Baha'i Faith.

The greater Covernant is that God does not leave us alone and will always send a Messenger to guide us. I see since Jesus there has been Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah to fulfil that Covernant and Baha'u'llah says the next will be after a full 1000 years.

The lesser Covernant is the one the Messenger gives to the followers. In the past that has been broken.

With Jesus it was Peter on which the Church of faith in Christ was to be built and with Muhammad it was to be Ali ibn Abi Talib, which was rejected on Muhammad's death bed. (Thus why the Book of Revelation offers that the Two Witnesses would be dead bodies on the street for 1260 years). With the Bab, the lesser Covernant tied directly to the Greater Covernant in that the acceptance of Baha'u'llah was the completion of the Message of the Bab.

The Covenant is a massive subject, as when we read the Bible, it has been around since time began and man became aware of God.

Regards Tony
 
The rights of Kings, Queens and elected representatives has been upheld in the Baha'i Writings, and to all those that rule with Justice and mercy, it is in Baha'i law that we will aid that ruler in their goals.

So what about Baha'u'llah's words which you posted, that power has been wrested from the kings?

Same story as when the Christian churches decided to (mostly) align with the wielders of political power, giving them their blessing? Or even getting directly involved in politics, for example, my country is ruled by a coalition headed by the Christian Democratic Party?

The lesser Covernant is the one the Messenger gives to the followers. In the past that has been broken.

But you wrote a few posts ago that it was unbreakable?
 
So what about Baha'u'llah's words which you posted, that power has been wrested from the kings?

As I offered it is a big topic. A few thoughts here and there helps us to put another piece into the larger puzzle.

If we have a look what happened to the Pope and the Rulers of the time, we can see what God means. Most monarchs have fallen and people are choosing democracy. We have a way to go, for godless rule is the old world order and it is falling apart. Godless rule includes those that say they are supporting a faith in word, but do not do it in practice.

At the same time kings and queens will make a comeback as Baha'u'llah said God do not want to deprive the world of just Kings and Queens.

Baha'u'llah said the reign of the Queen of England would last and in fact one of her granddaughters did become a Baha'i.

Regards Tony
 
But you wrote a few posts ago that it was unbreakable?

That was the lesser Covernant of Baha'u'llah.

Many have tried all failed, a handful still try but will get nowhere. The lesser Covernant is clear and written, wheras in the past it was not.

Regards Tony
 
Many have tried all failed, a handful still try but will get nowhere. The lesser Covernant is clear and written, wheras in the past it was not.

I think see what you mean, each holder of the top leadership position had to make a written testament which named their heir, to avoid any succession crisis.

Other faiths have solved this in different ways. The Roman Catholics have a touch of democracy in theirs, which also safeguards against unexpected death of the heir

So Baha'u'lla named Abdul Baha, who in turn named Shoghi Effendi. But there it stopped, lesser Covenant nonwithstanding. The hereditary office has been vacant since, and cannot be taken by anyone ever again. Plus, there was a succession crisis, until the Universal House of Justice emerged victorious.

I see lots of parallels here with other faiths and their struggles with leadership and power.
 
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