A refutation of the refutation of 'an affair on Golgatha'

muhammad_isa said:
V. Garaffa says "they have used God’s Holy Scriptures to advance their own doctrines and traditions throughout history"
..meaning mankind are guilty of "bending the truth" for their own gain. I assume you agree with that.
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And people who live in glass houses, etc. Mankind is always and everywhere guilty of that. One can find instances of that in my religion, in yours, in his, whoever's ... but it neither proves nor disproves the point in question.

muhammad_isa said:
So "your word" against his opinion that he backed up with references.
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No, I'm point out he draws a conclusion from a reference that is inconclusive. That's where the error lies.
 
Thomas said:
I'm point out he draws a conclusion from a reference that is inconclusive. That's where the error lies.
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Great, whatever .. the article has been there intact for many years .. and now "you" feel the need to point out his bad English, and his bad references by "updating" his work?
 
Thomas said:
Thank you ... at least we've cleared that up. :)
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I've already said that I accept that you think the discussion is fruitless.
..so is there any point in me continuing to criticize your refutation?
Probably not. You will presumably continue with Roger to "update" other articles and I will
lose interest in the website :)
 
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muhammad_isa said:
V. Garaffa: if Jesus did not say it, how dare men use this ‘sacred’ vehicle to demand that he did when they admit to the contrary? In the same manner, they have used God’s Holy Scriptures to advance their own doctrines and traditions throughout history.

Thomas: But, on the other hand, if Jesus did say it, then the argument is void. As no argument is presented, this is void.

Perhaps I should remind people that Garaffa is claiming that Jesus did not say he was God.

Now, I can show you verses in the Bible which imply that he most certainly is NOT God .. and you can show
me verses which imply that he is. :)

I therefore suggest that one needs evidence APART from quoting literal Bible verses to sort out this issue.
If one is not prepared to do that, then I would say that Garaffa wins by default.

NB. Garaffa has supplied references
For example: the Peake’s Commentary on the Bible
https://archive.org/details/commentaryonbibl00peak/page/n5/mode/2up
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The biggest issue I see here is that one needs two more theologies to unravel this topic.

I personally see one needs the Quran and the Baha'i Writings.

Jesus as a Messenger is not God and as the Messenger, is the 'Self of God' amongst us.

The Self of God is a station, the Holy Spirit as no one, not even the Messengers know the Essence of God. They are all we can know of God, they are the reflected Attributes we come to know God by.

Regards Tony
 
"...the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise." -Thomas Jefferson

 
Islam said:
Deception, Lying
and Taqiyya

Does Islam permit Muslims to lie?

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to ..."gain the upper-hand over an enemy."
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There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya (the Shia name). These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.
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Taqiyya: Deception and Lying in Islam (thereligionofpeace.com)

Islam said:
Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which means 'cunning,' 'guile' and 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same.
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ibid, bold and underline mine, italics in the original. So Muslims believe Allah is a liar.

Though not called taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans (known as Hudaibiya) which allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later. Some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.
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Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.
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At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, probably because they were unarmed - having been given a guarantee of safe passage (Ibn Ishaq 981, Ibn Kathir v.4 p.300).
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Such was the reputation of early Muslims for lying and killing that even those who "accepted Islam" did not feel entirely safe. Consider the fate of the Jadhima. When Muslim "missionaries" approached their tribe, one of the members insisted that they would be slaughtered even though they had already "converted" to Islam (to avoid just such a demise). However, the others insisted that they could trust the Muslim leader's promise that they would not be harmed if they simply offered no resistance. (After convincing the skeptic to lay down his arms, the unarmed men of the tribe were tied up and beheaded by the missionaries - Ibn Ishaq 834 & 837).
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Today's apologists often rationalize Muhammad's murder of his critics at Medina by falsely claiming that they broke a treaty with their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad himself to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.
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Leaders in the Arab world sometimes say one thing to English-speaking audiences and then something entirely different to their own people in Arabic. Palestinian leaders routinely tell Westerners about their desire for peace with Israel, even as they whip Palestinians into a hateful and violent frenzy against Jews. Yassir Arafat even referenced "Hudaibiya" - an admission to conning guillible non-Muslims.
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ibid
 
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juantoo3 said:
So Muslims believe Allah is a liar..
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What is the matter with you?
..and what has this got to do with the OP?

I said:
Now, I can show you verses in the Bible which imply that he most certainly is NOT God .. and you can show
me verses which imply that he is. :)

I therefore suggest that one needs evidence APART from quoting literal Bible verses to sort out this issue.
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juantoo3 said:
The intelligent, rational person can read the two posts and connect the dots.
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You'll have to spell it out for me .. it looks like gibberish to me.
..or at best ignorant comments about Muslims.

You are really letting yourself down. You can't find a decent argument, so you resort to
defamation of Muslims. You speak for none other but satan.
 
juantoo3 said:
The not so intelligent, less than rational person can read the two posts and not connect the dots.
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You aren't being rational .. you are being emotional.
Everything we do is being recorded. Every act is judged by its intention.

God knows my intention, and He knows yours.
Any sincere person who believes in the Creator and Maintainer of the universe, should think carefully before
squabbling about what God is and what He isn't.

Why is satan a loser? Pride and arrogance, no?
 
It would serve one well to heed one's own advice before offering that same advice to others.
 
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I'm not the one making stupid remarks
juantoo said:
So Muslims believe Allah is a liar
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I quote from wikipedia, and you quote from thereligionofpeace.com. [ an anti-Islam website ]
If you wanted a serious debate about a serious topic, you would not behave as you do.
 
Will suffice for what? .. to keep you in your ignorance?

Do you think that Almighty God is NOT the best of schemers?
Anybody who plots against others for worldly reasons, will not be successful.
Almighty God created this world for a reason. Everything He does is for a reason.
 
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