A refutation of the refutation of 'an affair on Golgatha'

[muhammad_isa]

The above is rhetorical. I do not hold a position regarding Islam, it's your faith, not mine, I'm just pointing out that you need to take care lest one day you turn that same critical vision on your own path, or invite someone to offer an equally skeptical and critical investigation regarding the early traditions of your religion ...

@Thomas

The Birmingham Quran manuscript is a parchment on which two leaves of an early Quranic manuscript are written

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript

..just down the road from me in B'ham UK. It was originally held by Quakers in the Cadbury library.

It was radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645 CE (in the Islamic calendar, between 56 BH and 25 AH)
...
The proposed radiocarbon date for the manuscript is significant, as the Islamic prophet Muhammad lived from c. 570 to 632

However, I don't think either of us are trying to extinguish anybody's faith in God.
That being said, I do appreciate that it is not easy to change one's perspective or feel
socially excluded from a congregation due to creed.
After all, Jesus himself had that problem, did he not?

 

[muhammad_isa]

<script type='false'> I believe it is plagiarised.</script>

 

[Thomas]

One thing is for sure .. these early Christians who were driven out of Jerusalem did not believe in the orthodox trinity!

No, because the doctrine had yet to be vocalised in such detail. Once it was, no doubt they would have agreed to it!

 

[RJM]

No, because the doctrine had yet to be vocalised in such detail. Once it was, no doubt they would have agreed to it!

And anyone lucky to 'flee to the hills' with their life glad to get away: it was a terrible time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It seems @muhammad_isa knowledge of the destruction of the Temple and Masada etc, is limited to the usual quick few Wiki quotes pulled to support the sound of his own wheels turning ..

Well, please enlighten me .. why would the "Jewish Christians" have believed in the orthodox trinity if they knew what you know?

 

[muhammad_isa]

One unique feature of the Panarion is in the way that Epiphanius compares the various heretics to different poisonous beasts, going so far as to describe in detail the animal's characteristics, how it produces its poison, and how to protect oneself from the animal's bite or poison. For example, he describes his enemy Origen as "a toad noisy from too much moisture which keeps croaking louder and louder." He compares the Gnostics to a particularly dreaded snake "with no fangs." The Ebionites, a Christian sect that followed Jewish law, were described by Epiphanius as "a monstrosity with many shapes, who practically formed the snake-like shape of the mythical many-headed Hydra in himself." In all, Epiphanius describes fifty animals, usually one per sect

That doesn't look like the writings of a saint to me..
It is highly sectarian, criticising his "fellow believers" in Jesus.

Why do we have to be so venomous?

This is the thing with trinitarians .. they insist that Jesus is God, and then condemn everybody else who think otherwise..
For trintarians, it is not good enough to believe any other way than the orthodox creed.

That's what happens when we make arrogant claims about God, without divine authority.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Being a convert to Islam, it doesn't feel like "my" history. I wasn't born into any particular sect,
and had no worldly connection with any family etc.

I'm aware of the multidude of sects as I live near the second city of Birmingham UK. I try not to
involve myself in outright condemnation of those that believe differently to myself.
The main problem arises in war-torn situations. People start to hate others.
It is politics, and not religion that is to blame, imo. When nations / govts. become highly sectarian, we have trouble.

 

[RJM]

This is the thing with trinitarians .. they insist that Jesus is God, and then condemn everybody else who think otherwise..
For trintarians, it is not good enough to believe any other way than the orthodox creed.

No-one is condemning your belief. You are condemning their belief.

we make arrogant claims about God, without divine authority.

Think about it for a moment ...

I try not to involve myself in outright condemnation of those that believe differently to myself.

You're doing it every day, in fact. These are Interfaith Forums

 

[muhammad_isa]

No-one is condemning your belief. You are condemning their belief.
Think about it for a moment ...

That isn't true. Believing in a saint that uses such venomous language towards those that don't believe in
THEIR sect/creed implicitly condemns others. I am condemning the concept of the orthodox triinity being necessary as part of faith in God.
I am not condemning all of the Abrahamic sects other than my own.

You're doing it every day, in fact. These are Interfaith Forums

Who is actually causing division? Am I suggesting that people aren't entitled to their own sectarian beliefs? No.
Am I suggesting that atheists, for example, shouldn't be able to discuss the subject of God? No.
Am I suggesting that other people, regardless of their faith, are not sincere? No.

I cannot see how there can be peace in the world without discussing what we all believe and why.
Brokering peace with "the tongue", ignoring what our church actually preaches achieves .. what exactly?

Muslims who believe their warriors are saints .. Christians who believe their warriors are saints.
What would Jesus make of all that?
..I can understand the Quakers wanting to disown conflict and violence. Not that simple though, is it?

 

[RJM]

I am condemning the concept of the orthodox trinity being necessary as part of faith in God.

You are condemning what people believe, based on selectively chosen wiki snippets from ancient writings, ignoring those which do not support your own narrative, and ignoring that the world is not as it was in 1600 years ago. It is tiresome, and verges on trolling. IMO

Who is actually causing division? ...

Those who say "Jesus is God" are disbelievers; they will not enter paradise, but hell. These evil people will have no helper!

And surely they disbelieved when they said: 'Christ, the son of Mary, is indeed God'; whereas Christ had said: 'Children of Israel! Serve Allah, Who is your Lord and my Lord.' Allah has forbidden Paradise to those who associate anything with Him in His divinity and their refuge shall be the Fire. No one will be able to help such wrong-doers.

Quran 5:72 Other Interpretations

(edited ...)

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are condemning what people believe, based on selectively chosen wiki snippets from ancient writings, ignoring those which do not support your own narrative, and ignoring that the world is not as it was in 1600 years ago.

That is not entirely true. Naturally, I will tend to quote from wiki what seems relevant to me. I'm not however, ignoring everything else.
If anybody thinks I quote something that is "pure hearsay", I'm quite prepared to look into it.
You are right that the world isn't as it was 1600 years ago .. what particular aspect of that am I ignoring?

Those who say "Jesus is God" are disbelievers; they will not enter paradise, but hell. These evil people will have no helper!
Quran Surah 5, Verse 72

Your paperback version of Qura'n by M. Pickthall does not say that..

72. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto God, for him God hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
73. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
74. Will they not rather turn unto God and seek forgiveness of Him? For God is Forgiving, Merciful.
- Qur'an - Surah Maida -

..so verse #72 is saying that Jesus taught that those who worship other than God will not enter heaven.
#73 is saying that God is not the third of three, God is One
#74 is saying that God accepts our repentance

Furthermore, God is not a person in the "sky" with or without a beard, making threats.
Whatever happens to us individually and collectively is as a consequence of our own deeds

Kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way!

I'm not going to give a detailed response here .. other than to say that one must take verses in context.
I'm sure you know that it doesn't mean that we should go round killing each other

 

[RJM]

That is not entirely true. Naturally, I will tend to quote from wiki what seems relevant to me. I'm not however, ignoring everything else.
If anybody thinks I quote something that is "pure hearsay", I'm quite prepared to look into it.
You are right that the world isn't as it was 1600 years ago .. what particular aspect of that am I ignoring?



Your paperback version of Qura'n by M. Pickthall does not say that..

72. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto God, for him God hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
73. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! God is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
74. Will they not rather turn unto God and seek forgiveness of Him? For God is Forgiving, Merciful.
- Qur'an - Surah Maida -

..so verse #72 is saying that Jesus taught that those who worship other than God will not enter heaven.
#73 is saying that God is not the third of three, God is One
#74 is saying that he accepts our repentance

Furthermore, God is not a person in the "sky" with or without a beard, making threats.
Whatever happens to us individually and collectively is as a consequence of our own deeds


I'm not going to give a detailed response here .. other than to say that one must take verses in context.
I'm sure you know that it doesn't mean that we should go round killing each other

Yes, I edited my post before you responded. Whatever your religion believes, no-one is condemning your belief. It is you every day condemning the belief of others. It is against the rules of these forums.

 

[RJM]

CoC
We do not allow IO to be used either as a soapbox to aggressively promote any faith or political view, or see any faith or political view to be aggressively attacked.

 

[muhammad_isa]

CoC
We do not allow IO to be used either as a soapbox to aggressively promote any faith or political view, or see any faith or political view to be aggressively attacked.

I agree
..so would you like me to take a break from participation in IO?
I quite understand.

It has naught to do with me and all to do with the Message.

Man has a history of killing the Messengers, be they from God, or just men like us that were inspired to share was was given by a God sent Messenger.

Time for me to go. I wish you well and happy.

If you can't take the heat ...

EDIT
I did all that 'Jesus is just another messenger' stuff decades ago, but I was wrong -- and so are you. IMO

 

[Thomas]

However, I don't think either of us are trying to extinguish anybody's faith in God.

I do wonder then, why a Muslim expends so much effort in trying to undermine someone else's faith.

Why do we have to be so venomous?

Ask yourself that question.

Such 'venom' was not particular to them, it was quite common in those days. We've grown more sophisticated over the centuries.

+++

On the wider issue, the point I was making is that if one applies the same degree of skepticism and dismissal as you do, then from that pov the foundations of Islam fall apart.

I do not hold to your dogmas, nor do I have a need to challenge them.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do wonder then, why a Muslim expends so much effort in trying to undermine someone else's faith.

I was only trying to be helpful
I hope that our dialogue has helped you to see a Muslim's perspective.

 

[Thomas]

I was only trying to be helpful
I hope that our dialogue has helped you to see a Muslim's perspective.

Oh, I understand the perspective.

I just don't accept the choices of what's 'reliable' and what's not. I tend to side with scholarship on that one.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I tend to side with scholarship on that one.

7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
- James 4 -

9. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
- Matthew 5 -

4. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
- 1 Corinthians 13 -

 

[muhammad_isa]

May Victor Garaffa rest in peace .. Amen

 

[RJM]

No disrespect of Islam or of Muslim people is intended or implied