A refutation of the refutation of 'an affair on Golgatha'

Of course it started in Jerusalem. It had to start somewhere. But it very quickly spread to Rome.

It's you who brought up the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, in relation (to the timeline)
The first Jerusalem church up until the destruction of the temple, was Jewish.
They did not have any Christian Bible.
It's difficult trying to unravel your gordian knot of contradictions.
 
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I'm still not with you.
You believe that the first Jerusalem church believed that Jesus is God .. right?
..and you presume that because of an interpretation of what one man .. Paul .. is reported to have said in the Bible .. right?

There is no mention of God being a trinity in the OT. RabbiO will tell you this from the Hebrew.
The Jews were not expecting "a god-man" as Messiah.
The disciples of Jesus believed that he was the Christ [greek] / Messiah.
Your opinion that they believed in the orthodox trinity has no firm foundation.
 
You believe that the first Jerusalem church believed that Jesus is God .. right?
I do not know. They believed in the Resurrected Christ. And the Eucharistic sacrament was already practiced in Rome during Nero's time. It was misunderstood to be cannibalism and was the reason used to persecute Christians. So Christianity as separate from Judaism was evident quite early
..and you presume that because of an interpretation of what one man .. Paul .. is reported to have said in the Bible .. right?
As always, you dispute the source, without offering anything else -- in this case Paul.
There is no mention of God being a trinity in the OT.
Why should there be?
The Jews were not expecting "a god-man" as Messiah.
So?
The disciples of Jesus believed that he was the Christ [greek] / Messiah.
Perhaps. But it spread to the gentiles.
Your opinion that they believed in the orthodox trinity has no firm foundation.
Neither does yours. They may not have defined the trinity in the first few years after Christ's ascension, but the resurrected Christ gave them the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and Christ's divinity is accepted in the NT. Which you also dispute.

(edited ...)
 
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I do not know. They believed in the Resurrected Christ. And the Eucharistic sacrament was already practiced in Rome during Nero's time. It was misunderstood to be cannibalism and was the reason used to persecute Christians. So Christianity as separate from Judaism was evident quite early
As always, you dispute the source, without offering anything else -- in this case Paul.

OK .. you do not know whether they believed in the orthodox trinity.

I said:
The Jews were not expecting "a god-man" as Messiah.
So?

..so why do the gospels keep on referring to Jesus as "the Messiah" .. why not God?
 
OK .. you do not know whether they believed in the orthodox trinity.
In the earliest days, the orthodox trinity probably was not clearly defined. But the Holy Spirit was accepted, as was the divinity of Christ the Son
..so why do the gospels keep on referring to Jesus as "the Messiah" .. why not God?
When Thomas called Jesus 'my Lord and my God' Jesus did not correct him. He blessed him.
John 20:28-29
Similar passages have been quoted and repeated all over these threads.
 
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In the earliest days, the orthodox trinity probably was not clearly defined. But the Holy Spirit was accepted, as was the divinity of Christ.

That is what you believe. The OT does not speak about a messiah who is God.

When others called Jesus 'my Lord and my God' he did not correct them. The passages have been quoted and repeated all over these threads.

Ah .. so the Jewish scriptures are not reliable enough for you?
You think that your English / Latin translations of a few specific verses from the NT are more reliable?

What you are in effect claiming, is that the Hebrew OT is unreliable .. not much different to what Muslims think, really ;)
 
This is becoming very wearisome @muhammad_isa
That is what you believe. The OT does not speak about a messiah who is God.
And Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. As is their right.
But then how do you get to this:
Ah .. so the Jewish scriptures are not reliable enough for you?
And then this:
You think that your English / Latin translations of a few specific verses from the NT are more reliable?
What you are in effect claiming, is that the Hebrew OT is unreliable
scratching my head
 
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That is what you believe. The OT does not speak about a messiah who is God.
It does not speak of a crucified Messiah either, who died and was resurrected

So "you are saying"
1) The disciples were Jews
2) who believed Jesus was the Messiah,
3) following the crucifixion they could not have believed in the resurrected Christ as the Messiah?

Therefore NT passages such as John 20:28-29 are false insertions, because they do not conform to the Quranic picture of Jesus that you insist upon?
 
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You think that the orthodox Jews [and Muslims] are wrong to think that the Messiah can't be God.
The Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. They are waiting for him.
You are tying yourself in knots.
 
Naturally, if the source is not available, somebody might well be hiding something for worldly gain.
D'you think that of the Official Version of the Quran?

"Qur'anic studies, as a field of academic research, appears today to be in a state of disarray. Those of us who study Islam's origins have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Qur'an – things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts. They include such questions as: How did the Qur'an originate? Where did it come from, and when did it first appear? How was it first written? In what kind of language was – is – it written? What form did it first take? Who constituted its first audience? How was it transmitted from one generation to another, especially in its early years? When, how, and by whom was it codified? Those familiar with the Qur'an and the scholarship on it will know that to ask even one of these questions immediately plunges us into realms of grave uncertainty and has the potential to spark intense debate. To put it another way, on these basic issues there is little consensus even among the well-trained scholars who work on them."
-- wiki --

And from sources of countries neighbouring the Moslem states:
"There is no mention of the "Quran" nor "Islam", (nor 'rightly guided caliphs', nor any of the famous futūḥ battles) by Christian Byzantines in their historical records describing the Arab invaders' advance, leaders or religion; the lack of any surviving documents by those Arabs who "lived through the establishment of the Caliphate"; the fact that coins of the region and era did not use Islamic iconography until sometime after 685 CE...

The accounts of non-Muslim conquered peoples also conflict with the accounts of traditional Islamic literature... Arab "immigrants" (Mhaggraye) who were invading/settling in formerly Byzantine territory at that time ... never mentioned the terms "Quran" nor "Islam" nor that the immigrants were of a new religion... Muhammad was "the first king of the Mhaggraye", also guide, teacher, leader or great ruler... The immigrants' religion was described as monotheist "in accordance with the Old Law (Old Testament)". When the Emir of the immigrants and Patriarch of the local Christians did have a religious colloquium there was much discussion of the scriptures but no mention of the Quran, "a possible indication that the Quran was not yet in circulation." The Christians reported the Emir was accompanied by "learned Jews", that the immigrants "accepted the Torah just as the Jews and Samaritans", though none of the sources described the immigrants as Jews.
-- wiki --
 
You believe that the first Jerusalem church ...

Muhammad_isa – this really is your on-going diatribe against orthodox Christianity, but one ought to tread lightly, old friend, because one stands at risk of being hoist on one's own petard.

To paraphrase:
"And you believe that the Angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammed, right?
..and you presume that because of an interpretation of what one man .. Muhammad .. is reported to have said in the Quran .. right?"

A large body of scholarship says the Quran evolved before its final editing and recension, that it contains materials from pre-existing sources, that its account of Christianity, for example, would suggest the influence of a mix of Lucan narrative, apocryphal Christian fables, Docetic and/or Gnostic narrative. Then a canonical version was collated and all other versions conveniently burned ...

A large body of scholarship notes that it's just 'not done' to question ... certainly the critical dialogue within Christianity would not be at all welcome in Islam.

+++

The above is rhetorical. I do not hold a position regarding Islam, it's your faith, not mine, I'm just pointing out that you need to take care lest one day you turn that same critical vision on your own path, or invite someone to offer an equally skeptical and critical investigation regarding the early traditions of your religion ...
 
It does not speak of a crucified Messiah either, who died and was resurrected

So "you are saying"
1) The disciples were Jews
2) who believed Jesus was the Messiah,
3) following the crucifixion they could not have believed in the resurrected Christ as the Messiah?
...

They could have believed in the resurrected Christ as "just the the Messiah". I don't know, but they probably didn't.
I understand you now. From this we get the various theories that express HOW Jesus was divine.
Thankyou for correcting me. :)
 
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D'you think that of the Official Version of the Quran?

No .. I don't.

"Qur'anic studies, as a field of academic research, appears today to be in a state of disarray. Those of us who study Islam's origins have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Qur'an – things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts. They include such questions as: How did the Qur'an originate? Where did it come from, and when did it first appear? How was it first written?
...

Can I be pain and ask you to discuss this topic in another thread?
 
According to historian Shaye J. D. Cohen, "the separation of Christianity from Judaism was a process, not an event", in which the church became "more and more gentile, and less and less Jewish". According to Cohen, early Christianity ceased to be a Jewish sect when it ceased to observe Jewish practices, such as circumcision. According to Cohen, this process ended in 70 CE, after the great revolt, when various Jewish sects disappeared and Pharisaic Judaism evolved into Rabbinic Judaism, and Christianity emerged as a distinct religion.

Shaye J. D. Cohen is a Professer of Hebrew literature and philosophy.

It is also understood by many that so-called Jewish Christians continued to worship in synagogues.
..so when we talk about "the Jerusalem church", are we referring to a group of people or a building?
There is certainly some confusion about the many different beliefs that people held around that time.
We all know what views became prominent over a few centuries within the empire.
 
Since historical records by the Ebionites are scarce, fragmentary and disputed, much of what is known or conjectured about them derives from the Church Fathers who saw all Jewish Christians as Ebionites and confused different groups in their polemics whom they labeled heretical "Judaizers". Consequently, very little about the Ebionite sect or sects is known with certainty, and most, if not all, statements about them are speculative. The Church Fathers consider the Ebionites identical with other Jewish Christian sects, such as the Nazarenes.

This is the problem. History can get wiped out. It doesn't seem to me to be accidental.
It is assumed that so-called Jewish Christians have heretical writings and so on.
Perhaps we are ALL heretics :D

One thing is for sure .. these early Christians who were driven out of Jerusalem did not believe in the orthodox trinity!
 
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