Arian Christology

[RJM]

The horus and the nexus, expansion and contraction, eternal movement -- no standstill ever, for standstill is the death of atoms ... Brahma breathes out the universe comes to be, Brahma breathes in, the universe ceases to be ... eternal swastika figure-of-eight dynamic -- 888 the number of Christ ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Again the idea that Christians -- eventually meaning Papist Catholics -- are just a lot of ignorant sheep, unable to form an original thought and totally subjected to the dogma and the yoke of their very nasty church masters

Also, this is never the intent and it is not why this point is discussed. It is about our history and if we look back in all honesty, we see those that thought differently than a doctrine, were at worst brutally killed.

This evolved into being a controlling though for all Christians, by which their faith is judged, even between themselves and the division of the church is ample proof of this comment.

So why is it, that a conversation can not be had in this topic now? Evidently the doctrine is so ingrained, even though it is not scripture, that is is still used to gauge a True Christian.

A Baha'i can say our Love for Jesus the Christ knows no limit and in reality, that is all that is needed.

We can agree to disagree, but still share fellowship in the Spirit that is Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

How can the Father be God and the Son be God .. but the eternal Father is greater than the created Son?

This is the Station of the Messenger. It is God that sends the Messenger and the Message they are to give. The Messengers are all we can know of God in Attributes and are the 'Self of God' amongst us, they are not the Essence of God

Jesus Message was that of Christ the Son of God, showing us our individual Salvation with God layed in sacraficing our selves to the Holy Spirit, to take up the cross and follow Christ.

Jesus said He had much more to tell us and when the Spirit of Truth came He would guide us to all Truth, the promise that the Father would come. A son becomes the Father.

Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) came in the Station of the Father and made it clear that he was the promise that Jesus gave. When we look at the Messenger we see the 'Self of God', the Message is the proof and they are the first to live by what they teach.

The Holy Spirit is the Son, it is the Father, it is the Messengers, it is all the Names and all the attributes it is also created of God, none of this defines the unknowable God.

There is many many writings in this topic now, thee is so much to discuss, so much to consider. It's like being a child let loose in the biggest and best candy store, so we must learn restraint.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

all honesty we see those that thought differently than a doctrine, we brutally killed.

All honesty we see that Genghis Khan, Stalin, Mao tse Tung got along with killing and division quite ably without the Pope. So what we see is -- and to labour the point -- why do you need to keep banging out half-truths about the Christian (read: Catholic) church -- while at the same time trying to piggyback your own religion upon its scripture and teaching?

 

[Cino]

I would add a scientific thought on how this spirit levels unfolds in this world. We now know that trees communicate.

Computers communicate, too. Is there a mineral level of spirit in the Baha'i worldview?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Computers communicate, too. Is there a mineral level of spirit in the Baha'i worldview?

Now you have quoted what was offerd about the Human Spirit. We have the power to discover and utilise the power of the vegetable and animal Spirit in this material world, just as we have the power to embrace the Holy Spirit in the Spirit of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

All honesty we see that Genghis Khan, Stalin, Mao tse Tung got along with killing and division quite ably without the Pope. So what we see is -- and to labour the point -- why do you need to keep banging out half-truths about the Christian (read: Catholic) church -- while at the same time trying to piggyback your own religion upon its scripture and teaching?

I doubt those that were martyred for Faith, or were killed, or tourtued, or mutilated because they thought different about Faith saw it as a half truth.

We have the same issues in this age, when it comes to the recognition of traditional land owners and how in many cases they were conquered by those claiming superior spiritual capacity.

It is easy for us to disregard the history that sadly reflects upon our spiritual health as a whole.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

Now you have quoted what was offerd about the Human Spirit

You wrote something about the various spirit levels in the Baha'i worldview, and mentioned the communication between trees as an example of vegetable spirit. I was curious whether it is communication which defines spirit to you, so I asked about signal-processing minerals (semiconductors). I don't see the connection to human spirit, or any quote of mine about it?

 

[Cino]

So why is it, that a conversation can not be had in this topic now? Evidently the doctrine is so engrained, even though it is not scripture, that is is still used to guage a True Christian.

The conversation is ongoing for 11 pages and tens of posts now. What are you talking about?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You wrote something about the various spirit levels in the Baha'i worldview, and mentioned the communication between trees as an example of vegetable spirit. I was curious whether it is communication which defines spirit to you, so I asked about signal-processing minerals (semiconductors). I don't see the connection to human spirit, or any quote of mine about it?

One of the attributes of the Human Spirit is the power of discovery. Using and transcending the laws of nature. The inventions of computers is an example of being able to use the properties of the Spirit that combines the Vegetable and Animal kingdoms to achieve this. We just extract those properties use then and/or rearrange them in different combinations.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The conversation is ongoing for 11 pages and tens of posts now. What are you talking about?

I think that is obvious to any one that see Jesus the Christ in a different light than a Trinity doctrine.

I also appreciate that Christians see they are bound by their views of Faith, not to consider what has for many years been treated as Heretical.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I doubt those that were martyred for Faith, or were killed, or tourtued, or mutilated because they thought different about Faith saw it as a half truth.

Of course. No excuse for it. But it was a long time ago, when medieval people acted in medieval ways. Remember that zillions of Christians have been murdered for their faith, and still are. The list of Catholic martyrs is long.

We have the same issues in this age, when it comes to the recognition of traditional land owners and how in many cases they were conquered by those claiming superior spiritual capacity.

And the Pope goes around the world condemning exactly that.
The Catholic Church does a lot of good in the world, you know Tony:
https://catholicherald.co.uk/a-worldwide-force-for-good/

The world’s biggest charity

Stalin famously said of the Church, “The Pope! How many divisions has he?” Less well known is Churchill’s response that Stalin “might have mentioned a number of legions not always visible on parade”. Indeed, the reach and influence of the Church are not easily described by statistics alone, yet the raw statistics are staggering enough.

The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world.

Even these numbers only tell half the tale. Caritas does not include development spending by a host of religious orders and other Catholic charities, while most of the 200,000 Catholic parishes around the world operate their own small-scale charitable projects which are never picked up in official figures. Establishing like-for-like comparisons is hard, but there can be little doubt that in pretty much every field of social action, from education to health to social care, the Church is the largest and most significant non-state organisation in the world.

In Africa, a recent research review found not only that maternal care at Church-run mission hospitals was of the same or better quality than at public facilities, but that Church hospitals were also more likely to offer services accessible to the poor…" etc

That's where the money goes, you know: not on golden thrones for the Pope. The church has always done a lot of good for people, all through its history. You do understand that a lot of bad people use religion as a cloak, and it is disingenuous not to acknowledge the fact, imo.

It is easy for us to disregard the history that sadly reflects upon our spiritual health as a whole.

Yes. It is, isn't it?
How many Baha'i missionaries do you have working with AIDS and leprosy in the most difficult and dangerous places, whose own governments don't do anything?
https://www.johnbradburne.com/

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Catholic Church does a lot of good in the world, you know Tony:
https://catholicherald.co.uk/a-worldwide-force-for-good/

I don't think either Tony or I are suggesting that the church is evil.
We both believe that mankind should unite under One God .. the God of us all.
All three of us have many things in common. It is dogma that divides us.

Do we all insist that only "our lot" are the ones who can achieve salvation?
The One God will decide between us when we all eventually meet our Maker.

 

[RJM]

Do we all insist that only "our lot" are the ones who can achieve salvation?

No.
Do you?

We both believe that mankind should unite under One God .. the God of us all.

Or else?

Meantime "we" believe that although global unity and peace of all mankind is a nice sounding idea, it's not likely to happen anytime soon and, at least until that happens, the work of our religion is with our own individual soul, not with the politics of world unity, etc

Are there any Muslim missionaries working with lepers in Zimbabwe?

 

[RJM]

All three of us have many things in common. It is dogma that divides us.

The trinity, you mean?
What about the crucifixion, the resurrection, the sacraments, etc?
You make nice words, but the intention is to destroy Catholicism -- Christianity in general, with few exceptions -- and 'unite' everyone as Islam?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Of course. No excuse for it. But it was a long time ago, when medieval people acted in medieval ways. Remember that zillions of Christians have been murdered for their faith, and still are. The list of Catholic martyrs is long.

And the Pope goes around the world condemning exactly that.
The Catholic Church does a lot of good in the world, you know Tony:
https://catholicherald.co.uk/a-worldwide-force-for-good/

The world’s biggest charity

Stalin famously said of the Church, “The Pope! How many divisions has he?” Less well known is Churchill’s response that Stalin “might have mentioned a number of legions not always visible on parade”. Indeed, the reach and influence of the Church are not easily described by statistics alone, yet the raw statistics are staggering enough.

The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world.

Even these numbers only tell half the tale. Caritas does not include development spending by a host of religious orders and other Catholic charities, while most of the 200,000 Catholic parishes around the world operate their own small-scale charitable projects which are never picked up in official figures. Establishing like-for-like comparisons is hard, but there can be little doubt that in pretty much every field of social action, from education to health to social care, the Church is the largest and most significant non-state organisation in the world.

In Africa, a recent research review found not only that maternal care at Church-run mission hospitals was of the same or better quality than at public facilities, but that Church hospitals were also more likely to offer services accessible to the poor…" etc

That's where the money goes, you know: not on golden thrones for the Pope. The church has always done a lot of good for people, all through its history. You do understand that a lot of bad people use religion as a cloak, and it is disingenuous not to acknowledge the fact, imo.


Yes. It is, isn't it?
How many Baha'i missionaries do you have working with AIDS and leprosy in the most difficult and dangerous places, whose own governments don't do anything?
https://www.johnbradburne.com/

That is great, all Good is from God. All the rest is from our own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Meantime "we" believe that although global unity and peace of all mankind is a nice sounding idea, it's not likely to happen anytime soon..

I would agree with you that "global unity and peace of all mankind" is not likely to happen soon.
..well, it depends what one means by soon

and the work of our religion is with our own individual soul, not with the politics of world unity, etc

Are there any Muslim missionaries working with lepers in Zimbabwe?

I would agree with you that faith is about our individual souls..
..but it is also about "what the church is doing in Zimbabwe" as well?

 

[RJM]

"what the church is doing in Zimbabwe" as well?

Yes? What is that? Please tell ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes? What is that? Please tell ...

We shouldn't make it a competition of whose "church" is more charitable.
Charity is not just about money.
"a smile to your brother is a charity"

I'm aware that this topic is divisive.

As @Tone says "I also appreciate that Christians see they are bound by their views of Faith, not to consider what has for many years been treated as Heretical."

Is that OUR fault? Is 2000 years of Christian history OUR fault?
Is 1500 years of Muslim history OUR fault?

 

[RJM]

We shouldn't make it a competition of whose "church" is more charitable.

You haven't answered my questions:
1) Are there Muslim missionaries in Zimbabwe working with the most remote and helpless people?
2) What (bad stuff) 'is the church doing in Zimbabwe as well?'

Charity is not just about money.
"a smile to your brother is a charity"

You never disappoint me with your evasions

I'm aware that this topic is divisive.

The trinity, you mean? Because it makes Muslims unhappy?
And you continually ignore the rest I say, which is that your problem is not with the trinity alone. If you had your way everyone would need to follow Muslim dietary rules, and not have pictures in their homes, etc?