Arian Christology

[muhammad_isa]

...If you had your way everyone would need to follow Muslim dietary rules, and not have pictures in their homes, etc?

That is a bit of an extreme accusation.
I'm not interested in "having my way". I'm an elderly gentleman who is expecting to meet my Maker sometime soon.

What you eat and drink and how you decorate your house is none of my business.

However, if you think that Muslims are guilty of blasphemy, I strongly object.

The Islamic creed is simple "believe in God .. believe that Muhammad is a Prophet"
The Roman Catholic church expects people to believe in their infallibity.
That is problematic. It leads to a narrow view of God.

I'm not saying that the church is evil. I'm not saying that much of what Catholic councils decide
is wrong. I AM saying that it is not infallible.

 

[RJM]

The Roman Catholic church expects people to believe in their infallibity ... I AM saying that it is not infallible.

You're talking about Papal infallibility? As has already been discussed it's not that simple: it comes down to a CEO buck-stops-here vote, with God's guidance and after exhaustive discussion. The Pope is not just sitting there in his big chair making pronouncements.

... just so others are not mislead

 

[muhammad_isa]

You're talking about Papal infallibility?

Not as such .. no.
I'm saying that Catholic doctrine is not infallible.

In the beginning, God created the world.. we agree.
Moses was sent to the children of Israel with the ten commandments.. we agree.
John and Jesus appear, reforming Jewish beliefs of the day.. we agree.
Jesus is God..

Hmm .. who said that?

 

[RJM]

Jesus is God ... who said that?

As has already been discussed:
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:28-29

... just so others are not mislead

 

[muhammad_isa]

I see .. we are required to throw Bible verses at each other that are contradictory.

..sigh

*sarcasm* ..and of course .. the Qur'an can't help us, because it's a forgery

I find it hard to believe in a creed that relies on one or two verses of the Bible.
There was no Christian Bible in the time of Jesus.
The Greek Old Testament, or Septuagint was used up until around the 2nd century AD.

Marcion of Sinope was the first Christian leader in recorded history (though later considered heretical) to propose and delineate a uniquely Christian canon.
...
After Marcion, Christians began to divide texts into those that aligned well with the "canon" (measuring stick) of accepted theological thought and those that promoted heresy.

The process of establishing orthodox Christianity was set in motion by a succession of different interpretations of the teachings of Christ being taught after the crucifixion.
The Nicene creed being an important milestone that was established after "the great persecution".

 

[Cino]

We both believe that mankind should unite under One God .. the God of us all.

Nope.

 

[muhammad_isa]

@Cino

Ah .. I presume you are referring to the three of us believing in "different gods" .. is that it?

@Tone believes that Bahai is the way forward
I believe Islam is the way forward
@RJM believes that majority Christianity is the way forward

I wouldn't say that we don't all recognise that One God created the universe.

 

[Cino]

@Cino

Ah .. I presume you are referring to the three of us believing in "different gods" .. is that it?

@Tone believes that Bahai is the way forward
I believe Islam is the way forward
@RJM believes that majority Christianity is the way forward

I wouldn't say that we don't all recognise that One God created the universe.

I don't have any god. Many human beings don't, either, or have other gods than the three of you. I am a very strong proponent of religious freedom. Uniting all of mankind by demanding belief in one particular god is a horrible prospect to me. It's been tried before, look at what happened.

Hence my "nope".

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am a very strong proponent of religious freedom. Uniting all of mankind by demanding belief in one particulat god is a horrible prospect to me. It's been tried before, look at what happened.

I quite agree with you .. nobody should demand anybody to believe in a certain creed.
I don't think @Tone or I are doing that.

Re "it's been tried before", our observations of how mankind treat each other now, and in the past,
has a different lesson imo

United we stand .. divided we fall. None of us in the world today have a certain future of happiness and prosperity.
This worldly life is an illusion .. one minute success .. the next minute collapse.

 

[Cino]

United we stand .. divided we fall.

I think uniting through our shared humanity would be more promising (and admittedly also a long way off) than through religious beliefs.

 

[Cino]

This worldly life is an illusion .. one minute success .. the next minute collapse.

... and the minute after that, success again. We're a resilient lot, we humans. No single setback has stopped us yet for good. And while nothing lasts forever, it's not yet time to give up, in my opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think uniting through our shared humanity would be more promising..

Who can fault that..

... and the minute after that, success again. We're a resilient lot, we humans. No single setback has stopped us yet for good. And while nothing lasts forever, it's not yet time to give up, in my opinion.

That's it
Peace be with you.

 

[Cino]

Peace be with you.

Wa'alaikum assalaam.

 

[RJM]

@RJM believes that majority Christianity is the way forward

No. That is an assumption. I believe it is one way.

I'm defending (trinitarian) Christianity against ignorant attack by people of other religions who don't understand or know what they're talking about.

I believe he without fault should throw the first stone at Catholics, and he who seeks to remove the speck from his brother's eye, should first remove the brick from his own eye. That's all.*

One God created the univers

How do you know that? You read it in a book?

I'm an elderly gentleman who is expecting to meet my Maker sometime soon.

I did not mean to pass over that comment Muhammad. I sympathise with your poor health and wish you well

* I actually find it quite offensive that you keep including me into your belief system in any way -- buddy arm around the shoulder: "We all believe the same thing really, now don't we?" What could be more reasonable?

Count me out. You don't really know what I believe. Please do not speak for me. And that too has already been discussed.

 

[muhammad_isa]

33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
- Bible Luke 23 -

I only quote these verses to show that Jesus asked God to forgive his enemies..

 

[RJM]

only quote these verses to show that Jesus asked God to forgive his enemies..

You like it simple. Life's not like that.

If 'God' is the unchanging vertical Spirit axis, then 'Christ' is the temporal incarnation upon the horizontal axis of nature, antahkarana bridge manifest symbol figure-of-eight shifting axis infinity flow

But I may as well talk to the trees.

And honestly I couldn't care less what Islam wants me to be. You guys have got your own faith and your own soul and the boulder in your own eye to worry about, imo

Goodnight

 

[muhammad_isa]

I only quote these verses to show that Jesus asked God to forgive his enemies..

You like it simple. Life's not like that.

I suppose you are right. Perhaps "enemies" isn't the right word to use.
Those people that were crucifying him, perhaps?

If 'God' is the unchanging vertical Spirit axis, then 'Christ' is the temporal incarnation upon the horizontal axis of nature, antahkarana bridge manifest symbol figure-of-eight shifting axis infinity flow
..
Goodnight

You might as well .. I haven't got any idea of what you are talking about. There's certainly nothing in the Bible that
uses such language.

Goodnight.

 

[RJM]

I suppose you are right. Perhaps "enemies" isn't the right word to use.
Those people that were crucifying him, perhaps?



You might as well .. I haven't got any idea of what you are talking about. There's certainly nothing in the Bible that
uses such language.

Goodnight.

Fully God and fully man, suspended between the. horizontal axis of nature and the vertical axis of spirit.

The whole difference between the Christ and other so-called messengers -- by his own life demonstrating and fulfilling the mysteries of the Father, from Adam, to the final redeeming sacrifice.

All the pain of humanity, all the resurrection and redemption of humanity -- in Christ by his own life all things expressed and fulfilled and explained.

Think about it. Don't speak for another religion without the knowledge of it. Please leave me alone now @muhammad_isa

 

[muhammad_isa]

Please leave me alone now @muhammad_isa

Goodnight

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Islamic creed is simple "believe in God .. believe that Muhammad is a Prophet"

And believe that he has brought the LAST message from Allah (Don't forget that).

That is why God gave us a Covenant that we would never be left without guidance. It is up to us to decide when that guidance is given, as that is also part of the Covernant. God gives the guidance, we are to embrace it.

Like you do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani or Mírzá Ḥusayn-ʻAlí Núrí? That is the question.
But sorry, I am in the wrong forum. So, I retrace my steps and leave it to Abrahamics.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Like you do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or Mírzá Ḥusayn-ʻAlí Núrí? That is the question.

Welcome Aupmanyav. As you now know Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was taught the Bahai Faith by very knowledgeable Baha'i and also gifted a large box of books. Later Mirza Ghulam Ahmad changed a few of his core teachings after He said he had mastered the Baha'i Writings, to reflect what the Bab and Baha'u'llah had offerd.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad refused every invitation to a debate with the Baha'i, but Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never wrote against the Bab or Baha'u'llah.

I hope you are well and happy.

Regards Tony