timrevis said:
Qhahom1: My personal objections was there was not a single thing that I ever found in Revelations that gave me guidance to being a better Christian and my gut instinct is that if all the events described in Revelations are foregone conclusions about which I can do nothing, then it is nothing I need to know anymore than I need to read the horoscope to find out if I should leave the house tomorrow or not. I find comfort and direction in the other books - nothing in Revelations. I will, however, supress all of this and approach it with an open mind. (I recall the verses you describe, however, so it will be more of a refresher than a revelation!) In my lifetime, I have heard the seven things interpreted as Rome and the Catholic church - the bear described as the USSR during the cold war - It's been the favorite excitement of every tent preacher I ever heard - but I will seriously try my best because I respect your opinion. Let's hope my best is adequate!
The conclusion of self-defence at Sunday School (where two of our members have children overseas) was that there is no Christian era "command" or "injunction" against military action of the state - but there's no injunction promoting it either. Where we wound up was with the confusion of Jews contemporary to Christ who rejected him on the grounds that their definition of a Messiah was one who would take military action and restore Israel to her former glory. Christ made it clear that the kingdon he would establish was not of this world and they couldn't accept that so they rejected him. We all agreed on this. Beyond this, we were split about 60/40 as to whether that implied that Christ did not concern himself with our man-made governments or did concern himself with 60% deciding that our obligations are beyond government and 40% believing that we are to establish governments that are somehow acceptible to Christ. But this veered off into a discussion of heaven and was an American Christian superior to a French Christian or Chinese Christian - we all agreed that a Christian is a Christian and then came full circle to the idea that, if this is true, then nationality or government allegiance is irrelevant to a devout Christian. There was also a side discussion that the difference between war and murder is the premeditation but I don't honestly see how someone could go to war and not expect to kill someone. (We didn't want to say this aloud because of our two parents) but we did discuss how children can be inadvertantly killed in war and if we are opposed to abortion, how do we justify this even if it's an accident. It's very complicated - but all felt better for the discussion and are going to bring it up again later.
Have a good Sunday.
Tim
Good Morrow Tim.
I believe I left you with the wrong thought. I am not telling you that Revelations is or is not a book of value. I was merely pointing out an area in the Bible that specifically describes Jesus in real battle armor, leading a real army and His intention is to defeat the enemy (of which many humans happen to be part of).
Also, the Gospels do point out that Jesus was not here to bring peace and tranquility, in fact just the opposite. He is quoted as saying so. And when Jesus appeared to the disciples after His "death" were they not so fearful of his presence? Such to the point that Jesus had to tell them to be at peace (In their minds, the sight of Jesus appearing so soon, might have given them thought that "this is it folks", He's about to pummel the earth, and He was implying that the time was not yet).
Perhaps Jewish belief that God will return with an army is in fact right on (they just decided not to consider the inbetween time, and in my opinion, missed a wonderful oppertunity to get to know God on a more personal level).
You made in interesting comment about Revelations being a foregone conclusion. But at the end, it states that if man continues in his current ways, then, all this shall come to pass. That does not sound like a fixed destiny to me. It sounds more like a warning, and a prayer, that man "grows up". It is also hope for all God fearing people to work diligently (regardless of the name of their faith), to stem the efforts of those who would prefer man's destruction.
Since you teach Sunday school, you are in fact doing your part to do just that.
Satan wants us ignorant and oblivious, but God wants us educated and aware. It is impossible for the enemy to surprise one, if the one is aware of the enemy.
Tim, when I took the helm of our ship during some of the most horrendous Hurricans and Thyphoons ever experienced, I found comfort and peace, as well as confidence in the thought that Jesus stood right behind me, with his hand steadying mine on the ship's wheel. I "knew" He took personal interest in my "control" of the ship's direction and wanted me to succeed. Why would not He also (and more so), take personal interest in the "governments" of the world (or specfically those minding the "helm")? It would be insane to think that a God interested in the individual, would not be interested in the whole people, don't you think?
As far as war and murder. The difference is one is sanctioned by society and the other is not. One is "self defense" and the other is malice, assuming the role of God (concerning the power of life and death over the victim).
God's word allows for war, but does not allow for murder. Hmmm, one of the people in scripture who's faith stunned even Jesus, was that of a Centurian, a Roman soldier. How ironic that Jesus was impressed by a man of war.
Joshua was taught by God how to destroy Jehrico (sp), and instructed to wipe out everyone, but take nothing for personal gain. To do otherwise meant death by God. A soldier did not listen and was caught with "booty" from looting the town. He was tried and convicted, and asked forgiveness. Joshua forgave him, then slew him. Was that murder? No, because God set the penalty for disobedience, and did not give Joshua leeway to vary the punishment. Taking the life of another was God ordained and God ordered.
My point is that God is not a God of peace, and never has been. He is a God of war, and his opponent is a god of war. The prize is us...
I've never read in history where pacifists won a war of aggression...have you?
When we are told to "turn the other cheek", or walk two miles, or give our cloak as well as our shirt...we are being told to look into the eyes of our "enemy", try to live through his eyes, feel what he is feeling, empathize with his pain, and in doing so, we go from being selfish to selfless, and maybe we make a friend. It doesn't mean stand there and get one's butt kicked, and cry poor mouth after it.
Christianity is not a guarantee to ward off war, hard times, or pain. But it can make us stronger, so that we can handle the rough times.
Sometimes brother comes to blow with brother, even when both claim Christ as their saviour. Who's fault is that, Gods?
Oh, and thanks Tim, I've enjoyed our "Sunday School" today as well!
Hmmm, virtual Sunday School, what a novel idea...
v/r
Q
