The Lord's Prayer

Pope Francis has changed the wording 'lead us not into temptation' to 'do not let us fall into temptation' -- but it only applies to the Italian Vatican missal at this stage, I believe
 
Aramaic had not near as many words as Greek, Latin or English. So we have many translations.

The King James.bible's version differs as they went back to existing translations and culled a new version. The original pieces are all in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Quoine...and modern scholars struggle to not only go back to the primal texts that they can find but also ascertain the idioms and colloquillisms of the day.

Despite or because this...there are many versions of the Aramaic translations to english...none come out like our modern versions.
 
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RJM Corbet said:
Pope Francis has changed the wording 'lead us not into temptation' to 'do not let us fall into temptation' -- but it only applies to the Italian Vatican missal at this stage, I believe
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In Unity we changed it to "leave" us not in temptation...as what G!d would "lead" us there.

and you let us not enter into materialism.
But you separate us from error.
 
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Catholic:

Our Father who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil

(there is no Amen)
 
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wil said:
Our Father who is everywhere
Your name is sacred.
Your kingdom is come.
Your will is throughout the earth
even as it is throughout the universe
You give us our needful bread from day to day,
And you forgive us our offenses
even as we forgive our offenders.
and you let us not enter into materialism.
But you separate us from error.
Because yours are the kingdom, the power and the song and praise.
From all ages, throughout all ages.
(Sealed) in faith, trust and truth.
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That to me is the better translation as it shows us where the evil lays, evil is our own choices and not an independent source of power, it is our lack of the Light of God.

Regards Tony
 
RJM Corbet said:
But is it a translation, or an interpretation?
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Tis the crux of the biscuit eh?

Are not all translations interpretations?

The translator never has the exact words going from one language to another.

And it often comes down to the conventions, grammar rules, word availability of the "receiving" language, translators intent (who is paying them) and target audience.
 
wil said:
Tis the crux of the biscuit eh?

Are not all translations interpretations?

The translator never has the exact words going from one language to another.

And it often comes down to the conventions, grammar rules, word availability of the "receiving" language, translators intent (who is paying them) and target audience.
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I would say the translator's brief is to reproduce the original as closely as possible? Anything else is propaganda, no matter my reason trying to justify it?
wil said:
There definitely is in the Aramaic...some versions two of them.
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The Catholic Lords prayer omits the amen ... don't know why
wil said:
Regardless it is a "how to pray" not a "what to pray" to be repeated on infinitum verbatim eh?
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Totally, but when various cults and sects and branches start altering the basic translation of the words of Christ, it's not going to a good result, imo?
 
RJM Corbet said:
Totally, but when various cults and sects and branches start altering the basic translation of the words of Christ, it's not going to a good result, imo?
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Yet that is not the world in which we live, eh?

There is no basic translation of any of it is there?

https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/lordpray.htm

When it comes.to the bible...EVERY translation is created.to suit the needs/wants of the client (who is paying) in a format to suit the reader.

I tend to roglmao at poetry that still rhymes after translation!

All of it, imo, should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to debating accuracy of any translation.

It all starts off with Abba eh? An informal daddy or poppa, not the formal "Father".
 
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I like the Latin. Not difficult to translate into any other language. Any deviation needs to be justified with older text?
 
RJM Corbet said:
I like the Latin. Not difficult to translate into any other langyage. Any deviation needs to be justified with older text?
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The Latin was taken from older texts eh?

None of the bible was written in Latin...and Jerome decided there were So many Latin translations (not suiting his needs/wants he commissioned translators to make his official version (not unlike King James) Whether he went to Aramaic, Hebrew and Quoine to do so...or simply went to the Latin translations to combine ideas (like the Jews did to cannonize their bible...combining the thought of the jerusalem vs Bethlehem sects scrolls)
 
wil said:
The Latin was taken from older texts eh?
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Mmm ... but variations need backup text as justification. The Latin is the text we have. So I can't say: I think the Lord's Prayer may have or should read like this, or that -- without some original text to justify?
 
wil said:
All of it, imo, should be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to debating accuracy of any translation.

It all starts off with Abba eh? An informal daddy or poppa, not the formal "Father".
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Actually, Abba in the Aramaic of the time was not the equivalent of daddy or poppa. It was simply the Aramaic word for father.
 
RabbiO said:
Actually, Abba in the Aramaic of the time was not the equivalent of daddy or poppa. It was simply the Aramaic word for father.
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Thx, I will have to look...this is stored info in a stroke addled brain.. I may be wrong (did I say that out loud?)

My recollection is there was another word for a more formal version.
 
wil said:
Thx, I will have to look...this is stored info in a stroke addled brain.. I may be wrong (did I say that out loud?)

My recollection is there was another word for a more formal version.
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I'm sure there are plenty of resources on the web. Hebrew would adopt Abba as a more informal mode of address for one's male parental unit instead of Av, but as I noted Abba was the Aramaic equivalent of Av.
 
Translation issues aside: the text we have is the text we have -- so for a church or group to alter the wording of scripture requires textual evidence?
 
wil said:
Thx, I will have to look...this is stored info in a stroke addled brain
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You're doing great. Relieved (very) to have you back :)
 
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