Thoughts on Incarnation

It's you who comes on to a Christian Board and then dismisses the fundamental elements of our faith as a matter of opinion as if that were infallible fact. opinion

No .. It is you who insists that Christianity is as you say it is. eg. that God is triune

I don't think God sat down, wrote a book and then gave it to an angel to show a man who happened to be meditating in a cave ... that's a literal reading of Islamic revelation (correct me if I'm wrong), but I read that as metaphorical.

There you go again. I said that Jews also think that G-d cannot be a human being, and you ramble on about
G-d writing a book [ which He didn't do ]

Revelation has come to mankind from various prophets over the years.
It is not only Jews and Muslims who have their revelations / books .. it is highly likely that some
ancient religions have their roots in revelation from Almighty God as well.

The problem with human beings [ as @Tone Bristow-Stagg says ], is that they
revere their messenger / religion to such a degree that they despise others.

..then it becomes the work of satan !
 
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17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

- Genesis 17 -

I personally don't deny either of Abraham's circumsised sons as "chosen" .. if one has to put it that way.

It is clear from looking at the world that God has blessed Arabs, Jews and Christians.
..but BEWARE .. Almighty God does not like arrogance and oppression.
 
..but BEWARE .. Almighty God does not like arrogance and oppression.
..then it becomes the work of satan !
You do realise you are the oppressor here?

It is you telling us we are wrong ... calling us 'blood-thirsty', etc?
 
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That is really amusing
Hasn't got a leg to stand on? Are we all buffoons or something?

It is just that you believe everything that you are told by Christians / Bible, and
have faith in Roman history, that it has not been corrupted in some way ...but you just wander blindly on in your contumacy

NB It is you that choose to "rubbish" Islam in a Christian forum ..

Tell the Christian he's a fool who believes everything the Bible says -- that's all good.
Tell @muhammad_isa you question the Quran -- that's rubbishing Islam?
 
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The problem with human beings ... is that they revere their messenger / religion to such a degree that they despise others.
Said with a straight face ... it's so funny
The last 2 posts have no content. What a surprise!
You mean you choose to ignore the content? What a surprise! Whatever ... boring by now ... lol
 
This still begs the question to those who refute His death on the cross:
What then did Jesus do after He survived the crucifixion?
 
This still begs the question to those who refute His death on the cross:
What then did Jesus do after He survived the crucifixion?

Well, I don't think he went to India or Iran :)
I believe the same as you .. he ascended to heaven.

If you mean, what did he do immediately after for the next few days / weeks, why does it
matter? Are you trying to "make it fit" Bible passages?
If so .. that's OK .. but I would avoid the Gospel of John ;)

..I'm not saying that it contains no truth. It is just that truth mixed with falsehood is confusing.
The synoptics are far more reliable, imo.
 
Well, I don't think he went to India or Iran :)
I believe the same as you .. he ascended to heaven.

If you mean, what did he do immediately after for the next few days / weeks, why does it
matter? Are you trying to "make it fit" Bible passages?
If so .. that's OK .. but I would avoid the Gospel of John ;)

..I'm not saying that it contains no truth. It is just that truth mixed with falsehood is confusing.
The synoptics are far more reliable, imo.


Can you try to answer the question, instead of avoiding it. How long after Jesus didn't die on the cross, did he ascend to heaven, and what did he do during that time?

Assuming he had very severe wounds and someone was looking after him in secret -- or else he was unharmed just hiding away until his ascension after letting someone else suffer a horrible death in his place -- unknown even to Peter and the closest apostles.

He did it to trick even his closest followers?

They believe he appeared to them as the resurrected Christ, for 40 days before his ascension. It is covered quite extensively in the synoptic gospels. Did they lie?
 
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@RJM Corbet

Think what you like Roger .. I've had enough. Do your own research.

If you think the same as @Thomas, that the Ishmaelites are following falsehood, so be it.
I'm having a break .. I'm back in the Islam forum.

If you want to accuse me of running away, carry on .. we all know it's not true :)
 
@RJM Corbet

Think what you like Roger .. I've had enough. Do your own research.

If you think the same as @Thomas, that the Ishmaelites are following falsehood, so be it.
I'm having a break .. I'm back in the Islam forum.

If you want to accuse me of running away, carry on .. we all know it's not true :)
All you need to do is answer the question, to the best of your ability. You posted the problem, it's not for others to do the research into a conspiracy theory they don't think flies. Otherwise they'd have to spend all their valuable time researching various conspiracy theories. The justification lies with you?

I agree with @Thomas that it's quite fair to ask the same questions of 'the Ishmaelites,' as you ask of 'the Christians' without being labelled with dangerous anti-Islam accusations on the 21st Century internet.

I have removed all my personal contact details from my profile for exactly that reason.

And the question still awaits an answer from you ...
 
I agree with @Thomas that it's quite fair to ask the same questions of 'the Ishmaelites,' as you ask of 'the Christians'
Stuff and nonsense. Ask God's "chosen people" [ Jews ] the same question.
They will mostly tell you point blank that they don't
accept Jesus at all . I'm fed up. It's all lies and deception .. good night.
 
they don't
accept Jesus at all
Correct. So there would be no point asking what happened between not dying on the cross and ascending into heaven?
 
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Sorry, but there's quite a few text references to that effect.

Gospel of John aside, and the implicit elements in the Synoptics, we have Paul

Philippians 2:7-8
"Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross."

Paul means "in the form of [a] god" in Greek. That's a big difference from describing Jesus as theos, which our Paul never says. Like Romans 9.5, Philippians 2.6-11 also falls short of describing Jesus as God.
 
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If you mean, what did he do immediately after for the next few days / weeks, why does it
matter?
Because if he did not die, then he's pulled off an illusion and tricked his audience, hasn't he?

Such a man is not to be trusted.
 
Hi Ahanu —
Paul means "in the form of [a] god" in Greek.
As you note, the Greek term morphe ('form') is the root of much discussion!

According to the lexicon, from Homer on, the form is that which is seen, the external appearance. A paraphrase of the lexicon explains:
who, although "he bore the form (in which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven) of God, yet did not think that this equality with God was to be retained, but emptied himself of it so as to assume the form of a servant, in that he became like unto men and was found in fashion as a man."

Such texts have to be read in context. Here, in the letter, Paul is not offering a doctrine of incarnation per se, he's exhorting the Philippi congregation to emulate Christ in their dealings with each other – an exhortation to humility – and offering Christ as the supreme exemplar, from the next verse:
"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (which I read to infer His pre-existence with God).

To a monotheist, someone who bears the outward appearance of God is either God or a blasphemer? Perhaps I'm over-simplifying.

Yet the issue remains, there are a number of ways to interpret the text, and each find the exegesis that sits right with them. Mine is orthodox, obviously, although I acknowledge, as good orthodox theologians do, that the text is 'difficult' – another reason why I favour the reasoned debate of theologians, rather than the dogmatisms of those who insist it can only mean 'this' or 'that'.
 
Because if he did not die, then he's pulled off an illusion and tricked his audience, hasn't he?

You speak as if Jesus planned it all. What would you do? Would you "drop Pilate right in it?"
Personally, I would not.

What and which disciples would have known about what really happened, I have no idea.
I only know that early Christians had all sorts of beliefs, and the Romans persecuted them.

I also know that the Romans continued persecuting people for their beliefs for centuries.
You stick with them. Take your chances, and I'll take mine!
 
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