Thoughts on Incarnation

It's your story, not mine, I think it's nonsense.

Ah, but it is not my story.
It is what the Qur'an says.

..and "my story" is just as valid as "your story" i.e. acceptance of Roman history / Bible.

It is a shame that you continue to insist that "your god" is Jesus.
"my god" , is the same as the Jewish G-d, and not a man !
 
@muhammad_isa

Do you accept Christ's NT miracles? Calming the waves, feeding the 5000, raising the dead, etc?

I am not debating the truth of the scriptures here, just asking whether or not you accept them?

If so, do you not accept the Last Supper, Jesus foreknowledge of his betrayal and crucifixion, the agony in the Garden of Ghetsemene, etc?

If he walked on water, didn't he know what was going to happen? Either you accept the gospels -- regardless if they are actually true -- or you select the parts you want to accept?

I think it's so long since you read them that you now have to keep going to Wikipedia for your information about the NT Jesus? Yet you are happy to argue with people who know the scriptures well?
 
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@muhammad_isa
you are happy to argue with people who know the scriptures well?

I'm happy to argue with what I consider falsehood .. yes.

"The scriptures" are all historical texts written by various authors.
..then there are religions that have their roots in Empire, and others, such as JW's etc.

We are free to argue against "state religions" these days .. aren't we?
Come into the Islam forums and ask your smart questions. I will answer them there.
 
Come into the Islam forums and ask your smart questions. I will answer them there.
Wouldn't I be foolish to try to debate a religion I know only a smattering via Wikipedia, with people who have studied it their whole lives? Unless I was asking questions with a genuine wish to learn more about about that religion?

Anyway, the unanswered questions above are all about the New Testament and have nothing to do with the Quran? If you cannot answer them, why not just let the whole thing go?

What's the shame saying: I don't know?

These discussions just become an endless loop otherwise, and they drag down the whole forums, imo ...
 
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Anyway, the unanswered questions above are all about the New Testament..
...
Either you accept the gospels -- regardless if they are actually true -- or you select the parts you want to accept?

I don't accept the gospels .. not as inerrant historical fact. I accept most of it.
Do I "select" what parts I want to accept? Probably, but it would be more a case of interpretation.
Do YOU select what parts YOU want to accept? Yes .. you interpret the NT how you wish. Snap !
 
I don't accept the gospels .. not as inerrant historical fact. I accept most of it.
Do I "select" what parts I want to accept? Probably, but it would be more a case of interpretation.
Do YOU select what parts YOU want to accept? Yes .. you interpret the NT how you wish. Snap !
Exactly. You are welcome to reject the last supper, the agony in the garden, the crucifixion and the resurrection, John, Paul ... a whole lot else -- but then you are not discussing Christianity; you are imposing an edited version of Christianity limited by what the Quran says about it.

That's fine. You have your belief. Our beliefs don't agree. But what's the point of spending your whole life trying to force it on to other people. At least try to answer the questions?

That's why these discussions become circular, Muhammad. And that's repetitious and boring, imo

So ...
 
Same question to the Qur'an then ... how does it justify the deception?

Oh stop!
Why do you carry on with this Roman history versus Arab history nonsense?

It is apparent to any intelligent person that Almighty God has blessed both Christians and Arabs.
History is not totally reliable .. end of !
 
Exactly. You are welcome to reject the last supper, the agony in the garden, the crucifixion and the resurrection, John, Paul ... a whole lot else -- but then you are not discussing Christianity..

Don't be childish. Just because you are in a majority, you try to harass people with a different point of view.
I do not agree with the significance of the so-called resurrection .. and neither do many other Christians.
 
It seems that Moslem commentaries on the Incarnation have always been dogged by contradiction.

See the discussion at length here

Most Islamic traditions categorically deny that Jesus physically died on the cross or otherwise. Most traditions instead teach substitution, or the idea that another person was crucified in Jesus' place. However, some modern Muslim scholars believe that Jesus did indeed die, and references to his survival are angogical.

Disagreement and confusion on the nature of Jesus' death is found within the Islamic canon itself, with the earliest Hadith quoting the companions of Muhammad saying that Jesus had died. Meanwhile, the majority of subsequent Hadith and Tafsir argue in favor of the opposite.
-- from wiki --

(Modern Moslem scholarship makes more sense to me, as @muhammad_isa has said, we're not in the Middle Ages any more)

It seems the substitutionist theory originated with 2nd century Gnostics, and the Quran and Hadith have been clearly influenced by (heretical) Christian sources that prevailed in the Arab peninsula.

Muslim commentators have been unable to convincingly disprove the crucifixion, the problem compounded by their substitutionist theories.

Most Western scholars, Jews and Christians believe Jesus died, while orthodox Muslim theology teaches He ascended to Heaven without being put on the cross and God transformed another person, Simon of Cyrene, to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus.

Disagreement and discord can be traced to Ibn Ishaq (d. 761), reporting that Jesus was replaced by someone named Sergius, that His tomb is in Medina.

John of Damascus highlighted the Quran's assertion that the Jews did not crucify Jesus being very different from saying that Jesus was not crucified, explaining that it is the varied Quranic exegetes in Tafsir, and not the Quran itself, that denies the crucifixion, further stating that the message in the 4:157 verse simply affirms the historicity of the event.

Subsequent scholars of the 10th century on affirm the historicity of the Crucifixion, reporting Jesus was crucified and not substituted.

More recently, Mahmoud M. Ayoub, a professor and scholar, provided a more symbolic interpretation for Surah 4 Verse 157:
The Quran, as we have already argued, does not deny the death of Christ. Rather, it challenges human beings who in their folly have deluded themselves into believing that they would vanquish the divine Word, Jesus Christ the Messenger of God. The death of Jesus is asserted several times and in various contexts. (3:55; 5:117; 19:33.)

Early interpretations of verse 3:55 ("I will cause you to die and raise you to myself"), attributed to Ibn 'Abbas, used the literal "I will cause you to die" (mumayyitu-ka) rather than the metaphorical mutawaffi-ka "Jesus died". Wahb ibn Munabbih, an early Jewish convert, reportedly said "God caused Jesus, son of Mary, to die for three hours during the day, then took him up to himself." From Ibn Ishaq: "God caused Jesus to die for seven hours", while at another place reported that a person called Sergius was crucified in place of Jesus. Ibn-al-Athir forwarded the report that it was Judas, while also mentioning the possibility it was a man named Natlianus.

Al-Masudi (d. 956) reported the death of Christ under Tiberius.

Mahmoud Ayoub furthers modern Islamic scholars' interpreting the historical death of Jesus, the man, as man's inability to kill off God's Word and the Spirit of God, which the Quran testifies were embodied in Jesus Christ. Ayoub continues highlighting the denial of the killing of Jesus as God (my emphasis) denying men such power to vanquish and destroy the divine Word. The words, "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" speaks to the profound events of ephemeral human history, exposing mankind's heart and conscience towards God's will. The claim of humanity to have this power against God is illusory. "They did not slay him ...but it seemed so to them" speaks to the imaginations of mankind, not the denial of the actual event of Jesus dying physically on the cross. Islamic reformer Muhammad Rashid Rida agrees.
-- from wiki --

So it seems that:
The narratives of Jesus are derived from various Christian sources, orthodox, heterodox and heresiarch. The nativity (primarily Luke) with additional speculation about Mary and Joseph's 'backstory'. The infancy narratives are apocryphal and were regarded by the Fathers as post-era fictions.

The crucifixion – clouded by conflicting commentaries – can be seen as utilising Gnostic speculation to interpret a metaphorical reading of the Qur'an as literal. Read metaphorically, it does not contradict that orthodox Christian understanding – that Christ was crucified, died, rose again and ascended into heaven.

Modern Islamic scholarship makes the most sense to me.

There's no mention of some a 'Pilate conspiracy', which frankly sounds a bit like some 'Dan Brown' nonsense.
 
It seems that Moslem commentaries on the Incarnation have always been dogged by contradiction.

Are you from United States?
People from US often use the word "Moslem".
Most people in Europe transliterate the Arabic word as Muslim :)
 
It seems that Moslem commentaries on the Incarnation have always been dogged by contradiction.

See the discussion at length here

Most Islamic traditions categorically deny that Jesus physically died on the cross or otherwise. Most traditions instead teach substitution, or the idea that another person was crucified in Jesus' place. However, some modern Muslim scholars believe that Jesus did indeed die, and references to his survival are angogical.

Disagreement and confusion on the nature of Jesus' death is found within the Islamic canon itself, with the earliest Hadith quoting the companions of Muhammad saying that Jesus had died. Meanwhile, the majority of subsequent Hadith and Tafsir argue in favor of the opposite.
-- from wiki --

(Modern Moslem scholarship makes more sense to me, as @muhammad_isa has said, we're not in the Middle Ages any more)

It seems the substitutionist theory originated with 2nd century Gnostics, and the Quran and Hadith have been clearly influenced by (heretical) Christian sources that prevailed in the Arab peninsula.

Muslim commentators have been unable to convincingly disprove the crucifixion, the problem compounded by their substitutionist theories.

Most Western scholars, Jews and Christians believe Jesus died, while orthodox Muslim theology teaches He ascended to Heaven without being put on the cross and God transformed another person, Simon of Cyrene, to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus.

Disagreement and discord can be traced to Ibn Ishaq (d. 761), reporting that Jesus was replaced by someone named Sergius, that His tomb is in Medina.

John of Damascus highlighted the Quran's assertion that the Jews did not crucify Jesus being very different from saying that Jesus was not crucified, explaining that it is the varied Quranic exegetes in Tafsir, and not the Quran itself, that denies the crucifixion, further stating that the message in the 4:157 verse simply affirms the historicity of the event.

Subsequent scholars of the 10th century on affirm the historicity of the Crucifixion, reporting Jesus was crucified and not substituted.

More recently, Mahmoud M. Ayoub, a professor and scholar, provided a more symbolic interpretation for Surah 4 Verse 157:
The Quran, as we have already argued, does not deny the death of Christ. Rather, it challenges human beings who in their folly have deluded themselves into believing that they would vanquish the divine Word, Jesus Christ the Messenger of God. The death of Jesus is asserted several times and in various contexts. (3:55; 5:117; 19:33.)

Early interpretations of verse 3:55 ("I will cause you to die and raise you to myself"), attributed to Ibn 'Abbas, used the literal "I will cause you to die" (mumayyitu-ka) rather than the metaphorical mutawaffi-ka "Jesus died". Wahb ibn Munabbih, an early Jewish convert, reportedly said "God caused Jesus, son of Mary, to die for three hours during the day, then took him up to himself." From Ibn Ishaq: "God caused Jesus to die for seven hours", while at another place reported that a person called Sergius was crucified in place of Jesus. Ibn-al-Athir forwarded the report that it was Judas, while also mentioning the possibility it was a man named Natlianus.

Al-Masudi (d. 956) reported the death of Christ under Tiberius.

Mahmoud Ayoub furthers modern Islamic scholars' interpreting the historical death of Jesus, the man, as man's inability to kill off God's Word and the Spirit of God, which the Quran testifies were embodied in Jesus Christ. Ayoub continues highlighting the denial of the killing of Jesus as God (my emphasis) denying men such power to vanquish and destroy the divine Word. The words, "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" speaks to the profound events of ephemeral human history, exposing mankind's heart and conscience towards God's will. The claim of humanity to have this power against God is illusory. "They did not slay him ...but it seemed so to them" speaks to the imaginations of mankind, not the denial of the actual event of Jesus dying physically on the cross. Islamic reformer Muhammad Rashid Rida agrees.
-- from wiki --

So it seems that:
The narratives of Jesus are derived from various Christian sources, orthodox, heterodox and heresiarch. The nativity (primarily Luke) with additional speculation about Mary and Joseph's 'backstory'. The infancy narratives are apocryphal and were regarded by the Fathers as post-era fictions.

The crucifixion – clouded by conflicting commentaries – can be seen as utilising Gnostic speculation to interpret a metaphorical reading of the Qur'an as literal. Read metaphorically, it does not contradict that orthodox Christian understanding – that Christ was crucified, died, rose again and ascended into heaven.

Modern Islamic scholarship makes the most sense to me.

There's no mention of some a 'Pilate conspiracy', which frankly sounds a bit like some 'Dan Brown' nonsense.
Excellent post
Are you from United States?
People from US often use the word "Moslem".
Most people in Europe transliterate the Arabic word as Muslim :)
Wow! So deep! That really counters @Thomas thoughtful, intelligent and well researched post ...
 
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Wow! That really counters @Thomas thoughtful, intelligent and well researched post ...

I'm not interested in arguing with a person who affirms God's "chosen people" as Jews [ descendants of Isaac ],
and continually argues that "Moslems" [ descendants of Ishmael ] follow falsehood.

It is an entirely "apologetic" attitude, that sides with Jews who totally reject Jesus in entirety.
I have no further interest in this discussion.

Clearly, you can't answer, so you deflect the question.

No .. I don't want to answer. You are a bigoted individual when it comes to history.
..imagine if you get the English colonial history of Ireland, and compare it with the Irish version.
..just forget it, eh?
 
Excellent post ...
Thank you.

I have a massive problem with a flat denial of the crucifixion, especially substitution theories (let alone conspiracies). Whatever way I look at it, I cannot see anything but a monstrous deception, and one that Christ Himself would have necessarily colluded in, unless it was against His will, and He was kept under house arrest somewhere ...

Nor can I see Islam, in all its wisdom, and with its high regard for Jesus, passing over such questions. I have asked for an answer, but none is forthcoming, nor can I find a Muslim commentary on that point.

The modern Muslim reading, which itself references traditional streams, makes much more sense.
 
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I'm not interested in arguing with a person who affirms God's "chosen people" as Jews [ descendants of Isaac ], and continually argues that "Moslems" [ descendants of Ishmael ] follow falsehood.
Evading dialogue via ad hominem is a transparent strategy that does you no credit.

No .. I don't want to answer.
Quite simply because you can't. Your 'Pilate Conspiracy' is entirely your own imagination, nothing to do with Islam.

You are a bigoted individual when it comes to history.
Another ad hominem.

...imagine if you get the English colonial history of Ireland, and compare it with the Irish version. ..just forget it, eh?
Now you're being offensive. As someone of Irish descent (as you know) you have not the first inkling of how I read Irish history, nor of the part my forebears played in its unfolding.

Shame on you.
 
That was his last post here
 
Not sure of the ref here, mine was Romans 8:3?

See post numbers 57 and 58. I responded to your translation of Romans 9.5 in post number 1. You said:

Paul speaks of Christ as ho on epi panton theos, "who is over all things, God blessed for ever" (Romans 9:5).

The RSV translates it as follows: ". . . to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen."

David Bentley Hart's translation agrees with the RSV. He translates the passage as follows: "Theirs the fathers, and from them - according to the flesh - the Anointed; blessed unto the ages the God over all things, amen."

Let's assume Paul did call Christ o theos. He doesn't do it anywhere else, making it an anomaly. Besides, the "amen" there seems to indicate a doxology.
 
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