@Thomas, please understand that the main division of Muslims - the Orthodox - do not have any doubts about Jesus.
Please disabuse yourself that we are in disarray over this!!!
I mean this nicely. Please take this from a either myself or any other Sunni (the mainstream of my religion).
It would be remiss to avoid Muslim sources and instead to rely on Wikipedia on this subject. Always go direct to Muslim sources for Muslim dogma.
Always get straight what the Orthodox Muslim view is first, as that is by far the mainstream view.
Please NEVER make Wikipedia your first port of call when it comes to Islam. I can say from hard experience that time and again, it distorts and sends everything to hell. Go to a mainstream Islamic source first and foremost.
I will now take apart this long post of yours but l won't be able to continue beyond this due to time constraints but at least allow me the right to defend my views from this substantial onslaught of yours:
It seems that Moslem commentaries on the Incarnation have always been dogged by contradiction.
See the discussion at length here
No there is no contradiction in the mainstream view, the orthodox view. In fact the Qur'an states that those prior to Islam quite wildly disagreed:
Qur'an 4:157:
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."
However, some modern Muslim scholars believe that Jesus did indeed die, and references to his survival are angogical.
I'm not sure what you mean by anagogical (sp.) in this context but:
1. What modern scholars say Jesus died?
2. Why do they say he died?
3. What does it matter what they say?
4. What is the point in being a scholar of Islam if one contradicts what the Qur'an actually said?
You are really reaching Thomas. Reach and you will find.
Disagreement and confusion on the nature of Jesus' death is found within the Islamic canon itself, with the earliest Hadith quoting the companions of Muhammad saying that Jesus had died. Meanwhile, the majority of subsequent Hadith and Tafsir argue in favor of the opposite.
-- from wiki --
This is a false statement Thomas. There is no disagreement and confusion in the Islamic canon. The Islamic canon is the Qur'an. That is all. There are so-called canonical books of hadith too, but they are not actually the canon, the canon is the Book we believe we received from Allah.
The hadith compilations are a treasure store of wisdom, so long as they conform to the Qur'an, and secondarily it helps that they have a strong corroborated chain of narration ("isnaad") but personally l don't care much about that, so long as it tessalates with the Qur'an's deep thinking.
As for your view that the hadith first said that Jesus died but then later said the opposite: I'd love to see this. It's in contradiction to the Qur'an, so this will be most interesting to see.
If you have a contention about our religion, base it on truth. Please.
(Modern Moslem scholarship makes more sense to me....
Cherry Picking / False Authority logical fallacy. You are just picking out what suits your narrative, no matter how obscure and whack-a-doodle-doo baseless it is to us.
It seems the substitutionist theory originated with 2nd century Gnostics, and the Quran and Hadith have been clearly influenced by (heretical) Christian sources that prevailed in the Arab peninsula.
I'm not even sure what to call this logical fallacy.
Basically, you are joining two very distant dots and making a false pattern.
Your original premise: Islam is false.
Therefore your conclusions will support that Islam is false.
Circular logic perhaps? NO, there's more to it but l don't know the exact call for it.
So anyway, you are not approaching this with an open mind. You are approaching it with the bias that Islam is false and CHRIST HAS RISEN!
So
therefore Islam must have copied this doctrine from that prior group which also had the doctrine. Islam even copied windows from the Manichaeans who, did you know, also had windows? And Mark the gnostic with his bowlhead haircut sitting there with high cheekbones yes maybe he was Persian but a very good Aryan and kind of Roman so it's all good and very wise he was and he wrote really nicely illustrated books with a candle burning next to him and the stars shining and then a bearded pre-islamic Arab, oh he was so scary he snatched the books of Mark the Gnostic and he was so swarthy at that, so he ran wit the books to his tent and now Muslims have the books and they copied from it DANG!!!! Wow you must be having fun in these orientalist wiki sleuthings Thomas !
Christian sources that prevailed in the Arab peninsula? There was no Christian Bible in Arabic until long after Islam came about, as far as l'm aware and Christianity certainly wasn't common in the area.
Please disabuse yourself of these remote possibilities and conquer the mainstream first.
Muslim commentators have been unable to convincingly disprove the crucifixion, the problem compounded by their substitutionist theories.
What is there to disprove? Our holy book says it didn't happen. Yours says it did. That's the crux of it.
However, our narrative is coherent in itself as l've shown in my previous long post to you on this thread. It has a flow to it.
I could go further and state flatly that your crucifixion narrative is logically absurd (= impossible). I'll save that for another time. But l can 100% prove it. I will not hand wave. I mean this: l will state my case in the minutest detail, and stand my ground whilst integrating your replies so long as they are intellectually honest. I will then overcome all of your objections and reaffirm my case, that your narrative is illogical, i.e. mathematically impossible i.e. a contradiction in terms. Feel free to challenge me to show this, l will absolutely show it. No anger, no hate from me. I'll be a gentleman.
Most Western scholars, Jews and Christians believe Jesus died, while orthodox Muslim theology teaches He ascended to Heaven without being put on the cross and God transformed another person, Simon of Cyrene, to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus.
Simon of Cyrene isn't mentioned in our scripture so please why bring him into it? Maybe some have conjectured about this or that person. But you haven't even gotten to grips without scripture nor our mainstream, and now you're pulling Simon of Cyrene out of some place?
Disagreement and discord can be traced to Ibn Ishaq (d. 761), reporting that Jesus was replaced by someone named Sergius, that His tomb is in Medina.
Let me be candid here. 80% of all Wiki controversies on early Islamic theology trace back to Ibn Ishaq. I've no idea why but l always turn off when he is namedropped.
I am telling you flatly: the mainstream view is in line with ... shock .... the Qur'an, our only scripture.
The Qur'an doesn't contradict itself on this matter.
So, there is no contradiction and discord.
Unless you firmly put yourself in the market for it, in which case sooner or later you'll find a discord provider and buy into it. But it's pointless because this is not a mainstream view. The mainstream view Thomas, remember to get through that first!!!
John of Damascus highlighted the Quran's assertion that the Jews did not crucify Jesus being very different from saying that Jesus was not crucified, explaining that it is the varied Quranic exegetes in Tafsir, and not the Quran itself, that denies the crucifixion, further stating that the message in the 4:157 verse simply affirms the historicity of the event.
What? The Qur'an states that Jesus wasn't crucified. Believe it or reject it but that is what we believe.
What on earth are you rabeting on about, seriously????
When l look at all the confusion on this page it's just you hoodwinking yourself, from obscure references or even spurious references, l don't know, all l know is this isn't what we, the main body, believe. We are not a barely-there majority either, we are by far the main body.
Subsequent scholars of the 10th century on affirm the historicity of the Crucifixion, reporting Jesus was crucified and not substituted.
Christian scholars?
Muslim scholars? Why would Muslim scholars say that? Who said that? Actual quotes? Why would they say that? Were they just quoting what others said in error? The Qur'an makes the view clear. He was not crucified according to our beliefs. If you believe he was, l won't contest that. It's your right. I'm just contending with you here because you're making false assertions about my beliefs.
More recently, Mahmoud M. Ayoub, a professor and scholar, provided a more symbolic interpretation for Surah 4 Verse 157:
The Quran, as we have already argued, does not deny the death of Christ. Rather, it challenges human beings who in their folly have deluded themselves into believing that they would vanquish the divine Word, Jesus Christ the Messenger of God. The death of Jesus is asserted several times and in various contexts. (3:55; 5:117; 19:33.)
What? The Qur'an denies the death of Christ.
Please don't lie about what is in the Qur'an.
Reject our beliefs if you want, l don't care. But please don't misrepresent us.
Here are the verses you cited, as you can see, they DO NOT ASSERT the death of Christ, at least not on the cross:
Sorry Thomas, but you lied by citing Qur'an 3:55 as referring to the death of Christ as if on the cross, when in fact it mentions his ascent alive to God / heaven:
003.055 (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
Sorry Thomas, but you lied by citing Qur'an 5:117 as referring to the death of Christ as if on the cross, when in fact it doesn't even mention death of anybody:
005.116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?
005.117 I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.
Sorry Thomas, but you lied by citing Qur'an 19:33 as referring to the death of Christ as if on the cross, when in fact we just believe that Christ will return to earth to fulfil his role as Messiah, and then marry and die a natural death:
019.029 Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy ?
019.030 He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
019.031 And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
019.032 And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
019.033 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
Sorry Thomas but ... are you on some kind of marathon?
OK l'll try to get through the rest of your post:
Early interpretations of verse 3:55 ("I will cause you to die and raise you to myself"), attributed to Ibn 'Abbas, used the literal "I will cause you to die" (mumayyitu-ka) rather than the metaphorical mutawaffi-ka "Jesus died". Wahb ibn Munabbih, an early Jewish convert, reportedly said "God caused Jesus, son of Mary, to die for three hours during the day, then took him up to himself." From Ibn Ishaq: "God caused Jesus to die for seven hours", while at another place reported that a person called Sergius was crucified in place of Jesus. Ibn-al-Athir forwarded the report that it was Judas, while also mentioning the possibility it was a man named Natlianus.
What? Seriously what on earth are you on about?
Here are some more translations of Qur'an 3:55 in case you didn't bother checking yourself and in case you're going to dismiss the translation l've just given above:
When Allah said: “O ‘Īsā , I am to take you in full and to raise you towards Myself, and to cleanse you of those who disbelieve, and to place those who follow you above those who disbelieve up to the Day of Doom. Then to Me is your return, whereupon I shall judge between you in that over which you have differed.
— Mufti Taqi Usmani
As Allah said, "O Isa, (Jesus) surely I am taking you up to Me, and I am raising you up to Me, and I am purifying you of the ones who have disbelieved. And I am making the ones who have closely followed you above the ones who have disbelieved until the Day of the Resurrection. Thereafter to Me will be your return; so I will judge between you as to whatever you used to differ in.
— Dr. Ghali
God said, ‘Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me: I will purify you of the disbelievers. To the Day of Resurrection I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieved. Then you will all return to Me and I will judge between you regarding your differences.
— Abdul Haleem
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
— Pickthall
(Эй Муҳаммад алайҳис-салоту вас-салом), Аллоҳ айтган бу сўзларни эсланг: «Ё Ийсо, албатта Мен сени Ердан бус-бутун (яъни, ҳеч қандай зарар етказмасдан) олувчи ва Ўз ҳузуримга кўтаргувчиман. Ва кофирлар ёмонлигидан халос қилгувчиман ҳамда то Қиёмат Кунигача сенга эргашган зотларни кофирлардан юқори қўйгувчиман. Сўнгра Менга қайтажаксиз. Бас, ўзим сизлар талашиб-тортишган нарсалар ҳақида ораларингизда ҳакамлик қилурман.
— Alauddin Mansour
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify [i.e., free] you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.
— Saheeh International
(And it was part of His scheme) when Allah said: 'O Jesus! I will recall you1 and raise you up to Me and will purify you (of the company) of those who disbelieve,2 and will set your followers above the unbelievers till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me you shall return, and I will judge between you regarding what you differed.
— Tafheem-ul-Quran - Abul Ala Maududi
Sahih International:
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.
Yusuf Ali:
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Shakir:
And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
Muhammad Sarwar:
He told Jesus, "I will save you from your enemies, raise you to Myself, keep you clean from the association with the disbelievers, and give superiority to your followers over the unbelievers until the Day of Judgment. On that day you will all return to Me and I shall resolve your dispute.
Mohsin Khan:
And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Quran] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute."
Arberry:
When God said, 'Jesus, I will take thee to Me and will raise thee to Me and I will purify thee of those who believe not. I will set thy followers above the unbelievers till the Resurrection Day. Then unto Me shall you return, and I will decide between you, as to what you were at variance on.
Are those enough translations of Qur'an 3:55 Thomas? Are you sure it says "I will cause you to die and raise you to myself"? Nor is there any variant reading of any verse in the Qur'an to the extent that you mention here. The variant readings just amount to vowel markings and nothing more. They are not a matter of controversy to us at all. I really don't know where you get the idea there are variant readings you've mentioned. I really think your sources have lied to you.
Don't attack a straw man. I really want you to critique our religion, our scripture, our beliefs. I love that type of productive debate. But l can't entertain you if it's just one guy sat in his cubicle spinning off fibs, his own or regurgitated from Wiki, as if that is my faith he's taking on oh-so valiantly! Please be more professional about this.
Al-Masudi (d. 956) reported the death of Christ under Tiberius.
LOL. Mas'udi collected legends and so on (l like his works from what little l've read). I'd be very surprised if he actually reported that as his own view. It was probably one of the historiographical curiosities he reported on. Also, it doesn't matter, we already know what the Qur'an states. That is our scripture. Look this verse up for example: Qur'an 4:157:
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."
Mahmoud Ayoub furthers modern Islamic scholars' interpreting the historical death of Jesus, the man, as man's inability to kill off God's Word and the Spirit of God, which the Quran testifies were embodied in Jesus Christ. Ayoub continues highlighting the denial of the killing of Jesus as God (my emphasis) denying men such power to vanquish and destroy the divine Word. The words, "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" speaks to the profound events of ephemeral human history, exposing mankind's heart and conscience towards God's will. The claim of humanity to have this power against God is illusory. "They did not slay him ...but it seemed so to them" speaks to the imaginations of mankind, not the denial of the actual event of Jesus dying physically on the cross. Islamic reformer Muhammad Rashid Rida agrees.
-- from wiki --
Cherries! Come get your cherries! Cheeerries for sale. Come get your cherries! Freshly picked, nice!
So it seems that:
The narratives of Jesus are derived from various Christian sources, orthodox, heterodox and heresiarch. The nativity (primarily Luke) with additional speculation about Mary and Joseph's 'backstory'. The infancy narratives are apocryphal and were regarded by the Fathers as post-era fictions.
The crucifixion – clouded by conflicting commentaries – can be seen as utilising Gnostic speculation to interpret a metaphorical reading of the Qur'an as literal. Read metaphorically, it does not contradict that orthodox Christian understanding – that Christ was crucified, died, rose again and ascended into heaven.
Modern Islamic scholarship makes the most sense to me.
There's no mention of some a 'Pilate conspiracy', which frankly sounds a bit like some 'Dan Brown' nonsense.
Want me to be frank, Thomas? Frankly, you're wasting your time making a straw man of our beliefs and knocking that straw man down. Please, stop cherry picking and outright fibbing.
Sure you just copy-pasted but the onus was on you to check before pasting.
Dude, l've tried to tell you what we believe and l hope you will integrate my feedback but somehow l doubt it will make any difference, l have a feeling you will still continue your negative assertions about my religion's tenets and the consensus views of its adherents. Please surprise me, write about us from our own sources!!!