Questions from a Doubting Christian

Sometimes I think what one may consider doubt is not really doubt, but rather questions and trying to understand the Creator and his ways better. I think that is a good thing because it shows a relationship there. It shows an open mind and a honest heart.

It does not make sense until a long time afterward through answers and Him revealing things to us.
Seek ye first what?
the Kingdom of God, then all these other things shall be added to you.

The wisdom and love of God is so complex, we can only gather such small portions of it, but enough to know.

:) It is a good thread.
We have only begun to scratch the surface.:)
 
I find it interesting that a bunch of us can sit around having a nice discussion yet all have a different intrepretation of the truth. It is curious that we can all have these different intrepretation and disagree on some pretty big things (like heaven and hell) but we all call ourselves Christians.

One thing that I have difficulty with are the many contradictions in the bible and a lot of the passages that seem "out dated". I think we tend to glance over verses like: Deuteronomy 21:20-21, Lev 20:9, or Exodus 21:15 which talk of the punishment of children who disobey their parents. In Deuteronomy they take the child to the public square and stone him to death. Certinally none of us woud do this to our own child, yet there it is in the Bible. Is that the truth? Is that what we should do? I think not.

It begs the question: If we can not follow the Bible to in an exact manner - that we must guess at what is the truth, and what is not truth - then who is to say which parts are the truth? Do we all agree? I think not. Therefore, the whole Bible is subject to intrepretation. Which might explain the range of differences we see in this room when explaining our beliefs.

But if we can't believe everything, then should we believe anything?


Lastly, many have asked about my statement of God fighting Satan in the bible. I have not yet been able to pin down the verse I h
ave been thinking of, but will keep searching. In the meantime, I have identified a few that show God's limited powers. Here is one such example
Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah and he drove out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron.

IQ
 
But if we can't believe everything, then should we believe anything?


I still believe everything. I do agree so much that the scripture is open for interpretation. And that it is ok to conclude "I JUST DONT KNOW" and leave it open for a future day when it will be shown to us.
But the reasoning abilities we have are tremendous when we work together.

It begs the question: If we can not follow the Bible to in an exact manner - that we must guess at what is the truth, and what is not truth - then who is to say which parts are the truth? Do we all agree? I think not. Therefore, the whole Bible is subject to intrepretation. Which might explain the range of differences we see in this room when explaining our beliefs.


I went through this one about 5 years ago. So I put the bible to the test too. I found it to be at least 96% accurate as to the way it was original written. The dead sea scrolls proved this too. Yet I do not find any contradictions. Even if someone were to try and change it a little, they did not change it enough to change the whole big picture of what is really going on.:)
We have over 4000 years of History, wisdom and knowledge in that one book and you can bet it was a great challenge for man to keep it together. Its not the same as writing a book today and pumping it out of the web onto paper. We are talking leather and stone. LOL and no computers.
The bible aint going anywhere. It is here to stay.:) Science and archeologists are even using it.

I look at those old bible days and shake my head too. Then I look at our own American Heritage with the Indians, slavery, hanging men, burning people alive, the early years of intense and brutal child labor etc. Then the Holocaust with Hitler and now Iraq,,, it is not pretty.:(
It is only in the last century that things like that have calmed down some. Man is barbaric.

A lot of those old laws we see in the OT are not Gods laws, they were mans laws.

These are the limitations that I see that God has.
He cannot lie. He cannot die. He cannot fail. He cannot be tempted. He cannot become finite matter or be placed in a time capsule.
There might be more, but those are the ones I know.

Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah and he drove out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron.
We have to remember here that God made the 'iron' that the chariots were made out of.
:) How are you seeing the Lord in this verse IQ?


 
The Spirit convicts us.. I think that we do wrong to squabble over interpretations.. We are told to go out and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not told to argue the bible and use it as a weapon. When I read the OT I am studying the history of Israel, Gods chosen people. Gods dealings with Israel has been a main factor in the OT. I am in no way applying the first 5 books to my life because its not about me in this present day. I do read the wisdom books and prophecy books because I do believe that most do apply to me as well as the nation of Israel. As a new Christian what should they focus on? The NT right? When you start digging into the OT if you do not understand the purpose of it how can you even begin to understand it in contrast to the NT. I believe that if your reading the OT and you become unsure and begin to doubt things wouldnt it be a good idea to go back to the NT for a bit and find comfort in the words of Jesus Christ or his apostles?
 
Hey, who's squabbling? There's a difference between squabbling and learning from each other. God is just too big for any of us to understand completely. That's why this forum is so good - it enables us to understand in new ways.

Yes the bible will always be open to interpretation. The trouble is, its now so old that the vocabulary of concepts we use to model our world today is very different from the way in which Moses for example saw things. There is no easy translation. But that needn't lead to arguement.

It might say God couldn't move the iron chariots when it means the soldiers of Israel couldn't do it. This was just their way of expressing it. A hundred years ago a sailor might have said "God gave us favourable winds", now they say they were lucky with the wind, but the essential concept is the same. Remember how the Victorians assumed that every massacre they committed was done in the name of God?

Should we stone our children? I think not. Is that a loving way to behave? This is the question we should be asking. Our life is our responsibility. We can't blame the Bible for our mistakes, however convenient that may sometimes seem.
 
Very Nice post takes me back to the very infancy of my own faith all the why's whats can shake a person. Some would rather you not ask but just continue blindly following I am glad to see that God has inspired you to seek the truth
I see lots of answers from people and think they have done a good job answering and offering ideas. I would like to offer mine just for the mix.

A The Flood issue. Genisis 6:5 And God saw the Wicked ness of man was great on the earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually and it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth
and it greived him at his heart.
God felt grief pain anguish I dont take this verse lightly My StepDad recently passed after a long illness on machines that were keeping him alive in the phyisical but not in the way anyone consideres life my heartaches with the decision we had to make to remove life support and let him pass I loved him so much. I cant imagine the absolute grief the Loving God we serve must have felt having to make this choice. He was fortunate enough though to be able to scour the earth and find one small spark of good just that one little man and his family was enough to hope for a better tommorrow. God know if my family would have seen one little spark in my dad we would have kept hope in his life and still be praying ove him today. I feel sorry for what God had to go through at this time I cannot even imagine the pain.

B I will keep this brief I believe God did make man right the first time around it was all perfect before we chose the knowledge of both good and evil. God already knew evil knew its outcome knew what it brought I believe He Hoped we would not chose it.

2 The Bible doesn't contradict its self here I have several children diferent types of personalities. One I shows a deep respect and daily does the things I see as good with no rules ever spoken. The other is a constant "son you have to do this, stay out of that etc. etc. etc." It does come down to faith in Jesus but one child can have faith and be righteous with no rules Another will build faith thru Following the rules. How do you feel closest to God what makes you feel faithful?
3 Jesus last word are very dificult and hard to build doctrine off of the word used for forsaken in greek has many different meanings. For instance it also means remain over My God My God wilt thou remain over me. Calling on God to stay with Him in this time of distress. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT HE SAID but simply saying it is one of those things I can wait to ask Him :)
I do know there is a similiar line in a hebrew psalm and he could have been quoting scripture.
4 It is completely possible to live under the law and survive just not many willing to be that devoted Going Back to the Story of Abraham we see an example of love and obedience. Abraham when tested showed that he was willing to sacrifice his most precious thing his son. You think how hard that would be to gather sticks and build an alter with your son Know it is his life that would be taken on it, all for a show of true love. Awesome, a father willing to sacrifice a son willing to give his life. Forever setting the standard that know one would doubt the depth of that love. God stopped abraham just short and provided a sacrifice for him. God did not stop short when proving his love for us He Gave His Son and His Son was willing, taking away all doubt of His love for mankind.

Gods mercy is beyond our ability to measure I have no right even thru study of the Bible to say who will be saved and who wont. To do so puts me in a very dangerous place I dont want to be.
Every man is supposed to work out his own salvation it cant be purchased we know that I struggle every day to answer questions in my life some of the same you have. I myself try to shake off the doubt and go back to the simple Do I love God and Does He love me . I dont dare put a limit on what God is able to do. The Bible in some spots seems to do this I know (as far as who will be saved). But I as of yet read nothing that Gives me the right.

5 I am not sure God battles satan like we would define battle If he did (or if he does) I would not want to buy tickets to that fight one round over before the bell stops ringing. He has a plan I am willing to trust Him to be right.
I cannot answer this question anyway that seems right it is beyond my ability but would like to share a verse that further adds to the question
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for Himself :
yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I as of yet have no Idea how to put that verse into the context of what I believe. Word for Word it changes the whole concept of free will ?

6 Man is perfect we are in the image of God we have the Knowledge of Good and evil. It seems we just dont know how to deal with that knowledge maybe that is what this little thing we call life is teaching us

7 There could be any of 100 reasons or more for the time of when and why the gospels were written. One thing I would like to point out tho is the scripture we are instructed to study to learn of God was not a letter written to a young man named Timothy or a letter written to a group of believers in Corinth. This doesnt mean not to study the Gospels and use them as a guide and it also doesnt mean that if you find other writings that edify your heart that they are not inspired. I believe the closer you draw to God the easier it will be to decearn what is truth and what is not.
The Jewish religion (I believe) by design did not recognise Jesus as the messiah
Muslims as I have been told Hold him in High regard but you would need to ask a muslim those details

8 This was done in error was wrong and I believe

9 There is no clear answer as to why it started when it Did I fell it was in part for the fulfilment of prophecy second all the players had to be in place for everything to come to pass. Second His home town he could preform miricales in but didnt " A prophet is without honor in his home town" my family and friends are often the hardest to preach to or convince of new things. They see me as a carpenter (Yes I am a Carpenter) not a scholar and have little respect for my beliefs.

10 This is a question that I am asking myself another one is why now when we have our own bible and a world of information at our finger tips do we blindly follow traditions of men. I cant say the motive of creating feast days that line up with pagen holidays just to "convert" people. I cant see changing the word of God just so it sounds more politicly correct as being anything other than wrong. Martin Luther took a stand against such things but stopped way short for what reason I dont know. Reform is needed I believe there is truth out there but because of the choices made in the past by leaders with questionable intent we have to search for it ourselves.
Maybe that too is part of Gods plan

11 I have a problem defining faith as the absence of truth ?
An old man once explained faith to me like this ... He asked me to sit in a chair I did: then he asked if I had given thought as to how the chair was built I of course hadnt. I sit down having complete faith that it would support me
That to me is human nature to have faith first to check the facts later and then only if it is something we deem important enough


Peace
 
Virtual_Cliff said:
Hey, who's squabbling? There's a difference between squabbling and learning from each other. God is just too big for any of us to understand completely. That's why this forum is so good - it enables us to understand in new ways.

Yes the bible will always be open to interpretation. The trouble is, its now so old that the vocabulary of concepts we use to model our world today is very different from the way in which Moses for example saw things. There is no easy translation. But that needn't lead to arguement.

It might say God couldn't move the iron chariots when it means the soldiers of Israel couldn't do it. This was just their way of expressing it. A hundred years ago a sailor might have said "God gave us favourable winds", now they say they were lucky with the wind, but the essential concept is the same. Remember how the Victorians assumed that every massacre they committed was done in the name of God?

Should we stone our children? I think not. Is that a loving way to behave? This is the question we should be asking. Our life is our responsibility. We can't blame the Bible for our mistakes, however convenient that may sometimes seem.
Hey Virtual_Cliff, you have a talent for putting things into perspective in words and making it clearer. That is awesome. Keep using it for the Lord, because I have been blessed by it.
 
Bandit said:
Hey Virtual_Cliff, you have a talent for putting things into perspective in words and making it clearer. That is awesome. Keep using it for the Lord, because I have been blessed by it.
Thanks Bandit, and thanks Brian and everyone on this forum. In the couple of months I've been a member, my thinking has been brought into focus by the questions and challenges. As a result my faith is richer and stronger than ever. God bless.
VC
 
I think the answer to many of your questions, IQ, boils down to the fact that what we call "The Bible" was in fact many different books, written by many different people, in many different times and places. Therefore, they reflect very different ideas about what God is like and how he works in the world. I suggest you try reading one of Bishop Spong's books.

When people forget this, they can get hung up on what is the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. They argue, and declare each other heretics because the others have the wrong interpretation. By picking out particular verses, you can support pretty much any interpretation you like. It pays to remember that the Bible was used as an argument in favor of slavery.

How do we even know what books belong in the Bible? Different Christians in different times have used different sets of books. Martin Luther in the 16th century threw out some of the books he considered "apocryphal".

I think the only answer is to be guided by (what Quakers call) the Light Within.
 
I commend you on your bravery. To even question these things is a huge step. I disagree with the writer who told you it is the dark one that will lead you to doubt. I believe your prayer and faith led you to doubt. As someone said, don't look for God in the Bible. The kingdom of God is within you. I have recently broken away also from christianity. Not broken away in the sense that I stopped believing but rather I do not allow myself to be dominated by that dogma/doctrine. Keep searching my friend. As Jesus supposedly said in the gospel of Thomas;"let him who seeks continue to seek until he finds, When he finds he will become troubled. when he becomes troubled he will be astonished and he will rule over the all."

I still believe in the power of the bible, i still believe there is power in the name of Jesus Christ. Search and do not stop my friend, true freedom lyes ahead.
 
Hey, who's squabbling? There's a difference between squabbling and learning from each other. God is just too big for any of us to understand completely. That's why this forum is so good - it enables us to understand in new ways.

Yes the bible will always be open to interpretation. The trouble is, its now so old that the vocabulary of concepts we use to model our world today is very different from the way in which Moses for example saw things. There is no easy translation. But that needn't lead to arguement....

Should we stone our children? I think not. Is that a loving way to behave? This is the question we should be asking. Our life is our responsibility. We can't blame the Bible for our mistakes, however convenient that may sometimes seem.
Great contemplations, and questions if we don't question how do we grow?
 

1. If God is omnipotent, then why did he decide that he didn’t like the way things were going and wipe out the whole earth with the Great Flood except for a couple of people and the animals?


...maybe God didnt do this... maybe it was just a natural disaster, and ppl attributed this great big disaster to God purely because it was so big and they had no other explanation for it...

a. What type of (loving) God would kill all his own people just because they were not following some moral code?

...a loving god wouldn't do these things...

b. If God is perfect, then he would not have had to do this...Earth and man would have been created, as he desired them the first time around.

...but, thats only if ur a Creationist... evolution suggests God didnt make the earth, so he can't be blamed for it turning out so crappy...

2. How come some places in the bible say you have to perform good works to get into heaven while other places in the bible say you only have to believe in Jesus as the Son of God?

...this is the result of the meeting of the old religion and the new one..

3. How come Jesus’ last words are contradicted in different scriptures?

...because it was 100's of years ago and the bible has been revised a lot

Why would they be “why have you forsaken me, my God? When he is dying why does he think he has been forsaken? That was his purpose, right?

...only some ppl say that... maybe jesus was gutted that God didnt come and save him, and God hadn't mentioned that he wanted jesus to die...

4. If God realized there was a problem that nobody was getting into heaven to be with him and sent his only Son to die for all of our sins - couldn’t he have figured out a better way?

...some ppl think that jesus' death was not gods plan to get us into heaven, and think jesus was short changed by God...
a. How does his death change us metaphysically so that we are accepted into heaven?

...it doesn't, unless jesus hangs around the ether...

i. Or if it is the perfect sacrifice (as I have read), what kind of father would sacrifice his “only” son for anything?

...jacob...

ii. What is the difference between God’s “son” Jesus and a normal human that makes Jesus a more acceptable sacrifice?

nothing...

b. If sending his only son was so important, then how come only those who believe are saved?

they might be making that part up?

i. About 3/4ths the world population will not make it into heaven. If God is all powerful, why not do something more effective?

becuase maybe God isn't like that, after all...

c. Why would God want to sacrifice his only Son to save people who broke his moral code so they could join him in heaven?

i. Why not just change his moral code?

why would an all powerful and always right god change?



        • What about all the people before Jesus? Did none of them make it into heaven?

        no, they didnt
5. If God is omnipotent, then why does he battle Satan (sin)? becuase lucifer was once seated on the left side of god, and was special, and God doesn't really want to see the end of him- god wants him to repent and come back into the fold...

a. If he gives us free will, but knows everything, then he knows our end before we began. He knows that some people will be cast into hell the moment they are born. Why create people to be born into hell?

becuase he's sick? or becuase the way we see god isnt the way god really is..?

6. If God created man in his image, why is man imperfect?

man is not imperfect...

a. Why is man tempted by sin and not God?

dont know about that one...

b. Why in some places in the bible does it say that God can be tempted by sin, and in other places that he isn’t?

7. How come none of the Gospels were written until at least 40 years after the death of Christ?

more like 100 years or so... and they were not written down becuase most xtians were poor and only kings and rich kids had schooling, and secondly because it was not cool to be xtian then...

. How come the Christian church tries to suppress the Gnostic gospels and any other documentation which could contradict the bible?

...becuase then the lines they had been giving u for years about the bible irrefutable word of god would be a lie, and the church would not have such a hold over the poor...


b. How come none of the other monotheistic religions believe Jesus is the Son of God?

...becuase they have their own sons

8. How come Christians had the Crusades and killed and persecuted those who did not believe?

..all religions have been used as an excuse for raping and pillaging... what make xtianity any different..?

9. How come Jesus lived the first 20 or 30 years of his life as a normal carpenter, never performing one miracle and then all of a sudden have these “mystical” powers? - but couldn't perform miracles in his hometown?

...when he had been consecrated by the holy spirit, he changed his view, and he received the gifts of the spirit... he maybe couldn't do it in his hometown becuase ppl wouldnt have believed him, and that would have weakened him, spiritually

10. Why did Christianity adopt things from other religions to help make conversion easier for people of other faiths?

...all religions do this, too... xtianity is no different..

11. If God gave us brains and the ability to think and question, why tell us to have “faith” (believe in absence of truth).

maybe god does not say this- maybe this is something for the priests to speak of...

maybe instead of seeing God as Christ, and maybe instead of seeing God as an all powerful being, we should maybe instead think of God as being like the holy spirit, something that only works through the faithful, something which can only work through man, and then maybe what God and jesus are/were, becomes more meaningful and intelligible...
 
or desciple? Or is the requirement to say we don't know him, deny him three times?

Wil I know this is going to come out badly but I have to say it.. the more you post the more I am convinced you have no clue what a real Christian is. Our whole belief is faith. Faith in God Faith in all 3 of the Godhead. Faith in the bible Faith in our redemption. Faith in the second coming.. God chose His people because of Faith.. Faith is accounted them for Righteousness.. OUR faith is accounted us for righteousness. That means that because of our faith we are righteous. period end of story. Hate it if you want :)
 
Doubting Christian = Oxymoron?

Not really. Part of the faith process is confronting and overcoming doubt. Thomas is a good example, as is Peter, and Saul/Paul, and everyone of us who in a moment of anger or sorrow or uncertainty ask "WHY"...

afterall, none is perfect...not even in their faith.

v/r

Joshua
 
Wil I know this is going to come out badly but I have to say it.. the more you post the more I am convinced you have no clue what a real Christian is. Our whole belief is faith. Faith in God Faith in all 3 of the Godhead. Faith in the bible Faith in our redemption. Faith in the second coming.. God chose His people because of Faith.. Faith is accounted them for Righteousness.. OUR faith is accounted us for righteousness. That means that because of our faith we are righteous. period end of story. Hate it if you want :)

God chose people, and faith is the gift He gave them. That is right from the bible. For man can do nothing by faith without that gift in them. The faithful are not righteous or lucky. They are full of grace given by God.

v/r

Joshua
 
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