Two types of intentions

[RJM]

What is the rational of murder done outside the tribe?

It's not murder because a member of another tribe is not regarded as a real person?

(And does the sin of murder matter based on it's intent and/or just determined whether it is so if committed in the tribe or not?)

If committed within the tribe, it is subject to judgement regarding intention and justifcation?

Which is different than sodomy because it effects tribal survival?

Most tribes come down heavily on sex outside marriage. It is the cause of strife within the tribe, also of sexually transmitted diseases and of inbreeding?

 

[Ella S.]

Fair point

I think it is worth pointing out, however, that Jesus can be interpreted as teaching the proper guidelines for those who wish to grow closer to God. They aren't meant as a judgment or condemnation. Indeed, he himself warns against judging others.

We're not supposed to accuse others of impropriety or sin. We understand sin so that we ourselves can avoid it and not encourage it in others, but we aren't meant to force others to adhere to our perspectives. The Pauline epistles, 1 Peter, and 2 Peter can come across as rather dogmatic, but they're writing from a disadvantaged position trying to push for clarity and uniformity in the teachings, not dogmatists using positions of power to force others to obey their will.

Jesus himself sought out sinners specifically to try to help them. He sought out the sick to try to heal them. He didn't condemn them for the lives they lived, but accepted them for who they are and supported them. That doesn't mean he didn't see them as sinful and didn't encourage others to be better, but his teachings supposedly came from a place of compassion.

I don't want to harass anyone into following my lifestyle. I'd be delighted if they were persuaded by my perspective, but I don't expect it. I'm merely sharing my point of view and I hold no ill will towards those who disagree.

 

[Ella S.]

What is the rational of murder done outside the tribe?

Go back and read Exodus. The phrase is "Thou shalt not murder" not "Thou shalt not kill." God then, directly after giving this command, turns around and tells his people to slaughter a neighboring tribe. He even kills several of his own people for refusing to obey.

"Murder" is the unlawful killing of another human being. Killing people outside of the tribe was lawful; if you weren't a part of the tribe, then you weren't subject to that tribe's laws. To this day, Jews still maintain that their laws are meant only for them and that gentiles aren't expected to follow them. In ancient times, this also meant that outsiders weren't given the same legal rights, either.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness" also specifically refers to, well, false testimony in a tribal court. It doesn't mean you aren't allowed to lie.

The 10 commandments became a lot more strict with time, but they were a lot looser originally.

 

[Unveiled artist]

Edit.

I take that back. The OP uses homosexuality to address how intention of two people having sssex outside lust compared to someone with mental health condition committing murder without ill purposeful intention.

If the latter is excused based on intent why not the former?

 

[Thomas]

If the latter is excused based on intent why not the former?

I think you're painting yourself into a corner here?

The key is intention.

Was the intention to murder someone? In the example you offer, no.
In a homosexual relationship, there is intent between two people to enter into a relationship?

Perhaps I'm wrong ... ?

 

[Unveiled artist]

I think you're painting yourself into a corner here?

The key is intention.

Was the intention to murder someone? In the example you offer, no.
In a homosexual relationship, there is intent between two people to enter into a relationship?

Perhaps I'm wrong ... ?

Most christians I come across say the intention of murder from someone who didnt mean to is not punished. However, if another person intended to murder then they would be.

The same logic should apply to homosexuality (in this context same-sex sex) in that if the action is of lust then its a sin but if it is not, it is not a sin.

The intention ideally determines whether X is a sin or not.

If it applies (or does it?) to murder why not same-sex sex in a relationship vs out of lust (homosexuality-in this context)?

 

[wil]

Why doesn't the same logic apply to homosexuality (defining this by the bible only)?

You can take the term homosexuality out and just use same sex sex

(Cough or use sodomy)

Which is different than sodomy because it effects tribal survival?

Brother, I dont think it is news to you or anyone now that you have an issue with same sex relationships.

Again, a learned Jew and Catholic have told you as theologians look at Scripture, the history, the culture, the author, the audience written to, the circumstances and language of the day and location.

They don't read what is written the same way a lay person or anti-gay preacher might.

Please identify the chapter and verse of.the offending line which troubles you so much.

And if you don't like same sex relationships...don't have one!

 

[RJM]

Brother

Sister, lol

dont think it is news to you or anyone now that you have an issue with same sex relationships.

I'm not picking up an anti-gay vibe? I'm picking up a defence (of adult choice, etc) against religious intolerance?

 

[wil]

I'm picking up a defence (of adult choice, etc) against religious intolerance?

Interesting... I read the opposite...seems like promoting religious intolerance!

Pardon this misgendering!

 

[RJM]

Interesting... I read the opposite...seems like promoting religious intolerance!

Pardon this misgendering!

Lol

@Unveiled artist's problem could be finding the type of banner-waving 'We Christians Club' people to argue with here, that are giving themselves such a bad name in America?*
EDIT
* And on other forums. They just don't seem to want to stick around us long ...

 

[Thomas]

OK. Let's take this one step at a time:

Most christians I come across say the intention of murder from someone who didnt mean to is not punished. However, if another person intended to murder then they would be.

OK

The same logic should apply to homosexuality (in this context same-sex sex) in that if the action is of lust then its a sin but if it is not, it is not a sin.

There is a disconnect here.

The same 'most Christians' you reference probably think homosexuality as such is wrong – a 'disorder' – whether or not lust comes into the picture. The same most probably think that all sex is wrong, if not expressly and solely for the purpose of procreation.

Lust is intrinsically wrong, regardless of gender orientation – it's one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

 

[Cino]

To this day, Jews still maintain that their laws are meant only for them and that gentiles aren't expected to follow them. In ancient times, this also meant that outsiders weren't given the same legal rights, either.

I think it's a bit more nuanced, I think, but don't feel really qualified to go into detail.

Also, there is Exodus 22:21 "Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt". Just saying.

 

[Unveiled artist]

Brother, I dont think it is news to you or anyone now that you have an issue with same sex relationships.

Again, a learned Jew and Catholic have told you as theologians look at Scripture, the history, the culture, the author, the audience written to, the circumstances and language of the day and location.

They don't read what is written the same way a lay person or anti-gay preacher might.

Please identify the chapter and verse of.the offending line which troubles you so much.

And if you don't like same sex relationships...don't have one!

I'm lesbian and not a Christian.

That aside, I'm not sure why the topic homosexuality has to be such an issue, though. If we can think outside the box and put away old repeated objections we can talk about topics in a different light. Since I'm not Christian this doesn't bother me in respects outside getting the point of my question.

That said, I commonly hear from many Christians homosexuality is a sin and define it by same sex sex (whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant here).

They say this despite the intention between both people involved.

However, when someone murders they excuse repercussions of that murder with whether one chooses to murder or it's something out of her control.

Why is there a double standard?

 

[Unveiled artist]

Lol

@Unveiled artist's problem could be finding the type of banner-waving 'We Christians Club' people to argue with here, that are giving themselves such a bad name in America?*
EDIT
* And on other forums. They just don't seem to want to stick around us long ...

Read post 33. I think there's a lot of bias here. Can gay people talk about homosexuality being a sin? Can Christians say they hate Christ?

To much guessing intentions behind posts.

 

[Ella S.]

I'm lesbian and not a Christian.

That aside, I'm not sure why the topic homosexuality has to be such an issue, though. If we can think outside the box and put away old repeated objections we can talk about topics in a different light. Since I'm not Christian this doesn't bother me in respects outside getting the point of my question.

That said, I commonly hear from many Christians homosexuality is a sin and define it by same sex sex (whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant here).

They say this despite the intention between both people involved.

However, when someone murders they excuse repercussions of that murder with whether one chooses to murder or it's something out of her control.

Why is there a double standard?

I don't mean to downplay your suffering, but, as a pacifist, I find this somewhat amusing. I've been trying to persuade Christians for years that police brutality and shady overseas military tactics are far more egregious than whatever consenting adults enjoy in their free time.

Try as I might, I just don't understand why so many Christians put more effort in protesting gay marriages than they do, say, volunteering at a soup kitchen or encouraging others to donate to charity. It seems like such a waste of time to me when there's no shortage of larger issues to address.

 

[Cino]

Why is there a double standard?

I agree it is a double standard.

Read post 33. I think there's a lot of bias here. Can gay people talk about homosexuality being a sin? Can Christians say they hate Christ?

To much guessing intentions behind posts.

Since you mention it: We discussed something closely along those lines a couple of years ago.

 

[Unveiled artist]

OK. Let's take this one step at a time:


OK


There is a disconnect here.

The same 'most Christians' you reference probably think homosexuality as such is wrong – a 'disorder' – whether or not lust comes into the picture. The same most probably think that all sex is wrong, if not expressly and solely for the purpose of procreation.

Lust is intrinsically wrong, regardless of gender orientation – it's one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Ok.
In this case I'm talking of lust and murder not sexual (rather than gender) orientation.

Lust is wrong (according to Christianity) but if the same two people had sex outside lust their actions would be sinful based on the sex of both parties involved. I know not all Christians think that way but I'm just speaking of those that do.

So the sex of both are important because it determines whether the christians I speak with see sex as lust or intimacy.

 

[Unveiled artist]

I agree it is a double standard.

Since you mention it: We discussed something closely along those lines a couple of years ago.

I won't be able to read the whole thing. Does it talk about double standards among some christians when it comes to sins?

 

[Unveiled artist]

I don't mean to downplay your suffering, but, as a pacifist, I find this somewhat amusing. I've been trying to persuade Christians for years that police brutality and shady overseas military tactics are far more egregious than whatever consenting adults enjoy in their free time.

Try as I might, I just don't understand why so many Christians put more effort in protesting gay marriages than they do, say, volunteering at a soup kitchen or encouraging others to donate to charity. It seems like such a waste of time to me when there's no shortage of larger issues to address.

It is. One thing that eats at me is conversion therapies. The Church still has them (https://couragerc.org/). I don't watch movies regarding that because of it.

We have antiabortion rallies here. Also, one adult store here had to hide her merchandise to keep her business. The Church protested even though the store wasn't on their block. But now they seem to treat homosexuality as an temptation. So, more so conversion rather than protests.

Thanks, though. Thankfully I've grown up without being lesbian being a major issue. There were bigger problems than sexual orientation.

 

[Cino]

I won't be able to read the whole thing. Does it talk about double standards among some christians when it comes to sins?

No, the post I linked to is about a gay person in a heterosexual marriage who believes gay sex to be sinful as taught in their religion.