Don't know and don't care.
Quran says that Jesus Christ died a natural death.
- Thread starter Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
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It's a mystery, isn't it? Christ lowered himself, even to hell, and then was raised to heaven, in order to encompass all creation. His mission was to sinners and to poor and broken hearted. But the mysteries of the crucifixion are not going to be understood by a person who doesn't have a reasonable working grounding in Christian belief and scripture, imo.
Do you know about the agony in the garden of Gethsemane? Christ accepted his crucifixion
The agony in the garden
According to all four canonical Gospels, immediately after the Last Supper, Jesus took a walk to pray. Each Gospel offers a slightly different account regarding narrative details. The gospels of Matthew and Mark identify this place of prayer as Gethsemane. Jesus was accompanied by three Apostles: Peter, John and James, whom he asked to stay awake and pray. He moved "a stone's throw away" from them, where he felt overwhelming sadness and anguish, and said "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass me by. Nevertheless, let it be as You, not I, would have it."
Then, a little while later, he said, "If this cup cannot pass by, but I must drink it, Your will be done!" (Matthew 26:42; in Latin Vulgate: fiat voluntas tua). He said this prayer thrice, checking on the three apostles between each prayer and finding them asleep. He commented: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak". An angel came from heaven to strengthen him. During his agony as he prayed, "His sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down upon the ground" (Luke 22:44).
At the conclusion of the narrative, Jesus accepts that the hour has come for him to be betrayed.
Exactly. Christians believe the Quran passage is incorrect -- Jesus did die on the cross
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It’s not a mystery! It’s a misconception taken from St Paul’s version of interpretation…At Garden of Gethsemane the prayers were to save from accursed death…He said “Take this cup away from me”…so God sent and angel to strengthen him…of what?… to be confident that whatsoever trial he will face…he will survive and escape from the death…He showed his anger to the disciples post crucifixion event at the UPPER ROOM, that look at my hands and feet, it has hole due to crucifixion…he allowed them to touch his body to feel he is not a Ghost or spook…(disciples thought he was a ghost…written in the Bible)…he said I am the same person…I told you this things will happen to me (the sign of Jonah)…and you have forgotten all these…when they could not believe…Jesus then asked then to bring food…and he ate before them…its a demonstration! For what? He was trying to prove that he did not die and his body is not a resurrected body. Does resurrected body eat broiled fish and honeycomb?
….See you all are taking these verse into a different direction and making the story in your own way (I know its not you but its St Paul, who is the real founder of Christianity)…We believe Jesus did his best to make his point but you all have misunderstood and de-tracked from the original teachings of Jesus.
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….See you all are taking these verse into a different direction and making the story in your own way (I know its not you but its St Paul, who is the real founder of Christianity)…We believe Jesus did his best to make his point but you all have misunderstood and de-tracked from the original teachings of Jesus.
Will you remove this message?
I am surprised! That you don’t care!Don't know and don't care.
Wrong. That's not what the passages say. Jesus was human too. He had human fears and emotions. He was afraid. He asked to be released from the passion he was to face. But then he accepted it. An angel gave him strength to accept it. Your interpretation of the NT passages is quite incorrect and skewed.
He manifested the wounds to show Thomas that he was real. In other passages he ate a piece of fish to show that he was real. He was truly risen. He was in control of being able to manifest a human body.No mention of wounds is made anywhere else except the single 'doubting Thomas' passage from John's gospel. With wounds that fresh, nobody would be walking around like nothing happened -- let alone inviting Thomas to put his fingers into the holes made by the nails, and put his hand into the wound in his side.
He was hanging the full weight of his body nailed through the wrists and feet. He was speared through his side, and he had been flogged. He was seriously wounded. He would be on his back for a long time. I do not expect you to be able to understand this. It has been discussed here exhaustively. Please do some research.
That he would rise again. Not that he would survive the cross
Yes. To show that he was really alive, really risen, a real person, not a ghost or figure of imagination.
No. He was proving that he was truly resurrected
Do you know what a resurrected body can or cannot do? The resurrected Christ was able to manifest and control a body. Again, you are not expected to understand this.
No. It is you who are doing that
No he was not. Yawn ... we've been through this a thousand times in these forums
We believe the same about you.
Why would I want to do that?
However I am not going to continue kicking the same dead horse. We have been through all this many times in these forums. It's old hat, brother. The New Testament does not say what you want it to say. It does not agree with Quran 4:157–158. The New Testament says Jesus died on the cross.
This is my response, please do not ask me to repeat myself
I am not going to get into another angry argument
Rather, please try to understand what Christians actually do believe, and why they believe it, before bringing the same incorrect arguments which they have already dealt with many times before, for 1500 years
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Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
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It is not an angry argument if it has a reference from the Bible or the Quran. Very knowledgeable arguments are here. Please continue. thanks.
Yes, and that's what causes people to get angry.
There is nothing to get angry about, if the arguments were totally unfounded.
Why would Jesus "rise from the grave" in a wounded body?
..makes no sense to me .. but then I find Christians often conclude that it's all a mystery, in any case.
Deliberately missing the point and ignoring the explanations given in post #66 and countless times before in previous threads, that's what makes people angry.
Deliberate misunderstanding and repeating the same questions, over and over, that have already been answered ... whether or not you like or accept the reply is a different issue -- that's what makes people angry.
Intelligent debate is welome. Using deliberate misunderstanding and deflection as a tool of intelligent debate is what makes people angry.
Evidence is required to support a conspiracy theory. Continuing to repeat the same conspiracy theory doesn't mean a thing, while ignoring and deflecting and delberately misunderstanding the evidence against it.
Ok? Anyway, please don't keep repeating yourself @muhammad_isa
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Mainstream Christian doctrine believes it is the resurrected and perfect Christ that rose from the grave, able to manifest and discard a physical body at will. The Christ descended into sheol, then rose to heaven, and so encompasses all creation.
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That's rich, considering the OP started the exact same pointless argument on the Christian board. I think everybody needs to take a long hard look at IO's COC, particularly Rule #2 We do not allow IO to be used either as a soapbox to aggressively promote any faith or political view, or see any faith or political view to be aggressively attacked.I don't give a tinker's cuss!
This is the Islam board.
Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi
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My biblical references and point of view will be posted in our Christianity section, about the above posts. we should not follow the mainstream people's ideas. We may argue and refer from the Holy books.
I was born and raised a Christian, so I have some knowledge of it.
I have given up debating on the Christian board..
..as Christians don't like Muslims telling them anything about their beliefs or challenging.
Christians don't like Muslims telling them anything about their beliefs or challenging.
Anyway, you have your answer here, so no need to ask again?
Whether or not you accept the answer, is up to you
I don't give a tinker's cuss!
There are several NT passages showing that the resurrected Christ was not recognized until he revealed who he was. It is common knowledge to anyone who has a reasonable familiarity with the New Testament
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Mainstream Muslim belief is that Jesus ascended bodily to heaven. Isn't that a bit of a mystery too?
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Mainstream Muslim belief is that Jesus ascended bodily to heaven. Isn't that a bit of a mystery too?
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No, nothing mysterious about it at all.
I am saying that many Christians resort to "it's a mystery", when certain Christian concepts or doctrine is debated.
There is nothing illogical about miracles.
The raising of Jesus to "heaven" and his consequent return comes under that heading.
Jesus being both a man AND G-d does not, imo.
It's a loaded concept, which takes the focus of faith from G-d / Yahweh onto a human being.
I don't agree.
You are saying that Jesus' resurrection is a miracle, and Jesus presented his wounds to Thomas as part of that miracle.
I should try Occam's razor on that one.
There is no reason why Jesus should have any trouble proving he was Jesus .. except
..naturally, Thomas thought that he'd died on the cross, so was astounded.
If Thomas thought that Jesus was G-d, then there was nothing to be surprised about.
That is why I previously claimed that the idea that Jesus is G-d came out of all this confusion.
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